The Career Toolkit with Mark Herschberg

WEBVTT

00:00:00.089 --> 00:00:02.410
Is a knife good or bad?

00:00:02.979 --> 00:00:31.094
Well, if you put the knife into the hands of a criminal it's bad He's going to use it to hurt people to steal from people to threaten people If you put that same knife in the hands of a surgeon, he's going to save lives Yeah, and so it's not about the knife itself But about how we choose to use it and this is true of any technology It has good and bad applications think nuclear power So AI is in the same boat and what we choose to do with it.

00:00:41.026 --> 00:00:52.426
Welcome to The Wayfinder Show with Luis Hernandez, where guests discuss the why and how of making changes that led them down a more authentic path or allow them to level up in some area of their life.

00:00:53.485 --> 00:01:01.405
Our goal is to dig deep and provide not only knowledge, but actionable advice to help you get from where you are to where you want to be.

00:01:02.695 --> 00:01:05.346
Come join us and find the way to your dream life.

00:01:14.105 --> 00:01:15.614
Welcome back to the Wayfinder show.

00:01:15.614 --> 00:01:17.275
I'm your host, Louis Hernandez.

00:01:17.625 --> 00:01:19.905
And today I'm here with Mark Hirschberg.

00:01:19.984 --> 00:01:25.984
Mark is the author of The Career Toolkit, Essential Skills for Success That No One Taught You.

00:01:26.355 --> 00:01:30.314
And he's also the creator of the BrainBump app.

00:01:30.674 --> 00:01:47.064
From tracking criminals and terrorists on the dark web to creating marketplaces and new authentication systems, Mark has spent his career launching and developing new ventures at startups and fortune 500 companies in academia with, and he has over a dozen patents to his name.

00:01:47.795 --> 00:01:50.444
He helped to start the undergraduate practice.

00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:57.329
opportunities program dubbed MIT's career success accelerator, where he teaches annually.

00:01:58.530 --> 00:02:04.849
And he's also been at the Harvard business school where he helped create a platform used to teach finance at prominent business schools.

00:02:05.310 --> 00:02:09.879
He also works with many nonprofits currently serving on the board of plant a million corals.

00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:22.469
And he's, he was one of the top ranked ballroom dancers in the country and now lives in New York city where he is known for social gatherings, including his annual Halloween party, as well as his diverse.

00:02:22.664 --> 00:02:24.064
cufflink collection.

00:02:25.354 --> 00:02:26.085
That's quite a bit.

00:02:26.085 --> 00:02:27.664
Mark, welcome to the wayfinder show.

00:02:28.544 --> 00:02:29.485
Thank you for having me on.

00:02:29.485 --> 00:02:30.685
It's my pleasure to be here.

00:02:31.085 --> 00:02:31.425
Yeah.

00:02:31.425 --> 00:02:31.824
Thank you.

00:02:32.064 --> 00:02:39.395
As I was preparing for this, I actually was, it actually, you, you have quite a bit more success from a very early time in life.

00:02:39.514 --> 00:02:47.395
And, I found myself having to figure out how to condense this quite a bit, but I understand you've also been a chess champion and quite a few other things.

00:02:47.405 --> 00:02:53.254
So, you strike me as somebody who, Has just always figured out how to become very successful at whatever you do very quickly.

00:02:54.305 --> 00:02:56.534
I tend to be, I'm very type A.

00:02:56.564 --> 00:03:01.694
So when I get into something, I get very focused and really dive into it.

00:03:01.775 --> 00:03:04.245
I think that helps me lead to success.

00:03:04.245 --> 00:03:10.060
That's not to say I don't have hobbies that are less serious, but I usually get very into something.

00:03:10.500 --> 00:03:11.490
Yeah, interesting.

00:03:11.849 --> 00:03:25.330
You know, before, I want to dive deeper into that, but I am curious, I want to ask you a broad question because I know you do a lot of work in the AI space as well, and that's probably the hottest space in the world right now, so I'm curious what your take is.

00:03:25.379 --> 00:03:27.860
I'm going to ask you this question in a very broad way.

00:03:28.250 --> 00:03:29.490
You can answer it how you'd like.

00:03:29.500 --> 00:03:33.169
Um, is AI good or bad?

00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:50.069
Now, we're recording this in the summer of 2024, and I mentioned that because, of course, anything we get into specifics of may be very out of date with AI even six months from now, but to your question, I'm going to rephrase it as.

00:03:50.555 --> 00:03:52.854
Is a knife good or bad?

00:03:53.495 --> 00:03:56.925
Well, if you put the knife into the hands of a criminal, it's bad.

00:03:56.935 --> 00:04:00.474
He's going to use it to hurt people, to steal from people, to threaten people.

00:04:00.824 --> 00:04:05.365
If you put that same knife in the hands of a surgeon, he's going to save lives.

00:04:05.935 --> 00:04:10.055
And so it's not about the knife itself, but about how we choose to use it.

00:04:10.335 --> 00:04:12.675
And this is true of any technology.

00:04:13.025 --> 00:04:15.335
It has good and bad applications.

00:04:15.354 --> 00:04:16.504
Think nuclear power.

00:04:17.425 --> 00:04:21.625
So AI is in the same boat as what we choose to do with it.

00:04:23.074 --> 00:04:27.264
Do you think that the good that could come out of it is going to outweigh the dangers?

00:04:29.634 --> 00:04:32.805
In the long run, probably.

00:04:33.675 --> 00:04:36.355
But let's be very specific about what those dangers are.

00:04:36.355 --> 00:04:42.064
And I've talked extensively about this and consult with companies as they try to think through this.

00:04:42.875 --> 00:04:46.425
It is more a societal problem than anything else.

00:04:46.834 --> 00:04:54.384
Now, when people are talking about AI here in 2024, they're usually talking about large language models, LLMs, generative AI.

00:04:54.464 --> 00:04:56.894
AI itself is, of course, much broader.

00:04:57.204 --> 00:05:01.165
It includes machine learning, machine vision, natural language processing.

00:05:01.220 --> 00:05:05.269
A whole bunch of other certain types of areas of A.

00:05:05.310 --> 00:05:05.660
I.

00:05:06.069 --> 00:05:07.180
That's all very useful.

00:05:07.189 --> 00:05:08.910
Much has been around for decades.

00:05:08.910 --> 00:05:09.410
Of course, A.

00:05:09.410 --> 00:05:09.490
I.

00:05:09.490 --> 00:05:11.699
Itself we've been doing since the 19 fifties.

00:05:12.180 --> 00:05:13.879
But when we look at generative A.

00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:14.259
I.

00:05:15.019 --> 00:05:18.160
It is a game changer in the following sense.

00:05:19.185 --> 00:05:25.295
It allows people to generate content at a scale that's been unprecedented.

00:05:25.915 --> 00:05:37.524
Now a somewhat minor example of this, I know of a science fiction magazine, and they would get lots of submissions every month from budding writers who want to get their story published.

00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:55.139
When generative AI became very common, I think there was sometime around February, March of 2023, when chat GPT was really kind of in the news, everyone started using it, they, I think they got 5 to 10 times their normal submissions and overwhelmed them.

00:05:55.654 --> 00:05:56.925
And they said, we have to stop.

00:05:56.954 --> 00:05:59.485
We can't handle this volume now.

00:05:59.495 --> 00:06:03.625
In this case, all you had were people who were generating some stories.

00:06:03.694 --> 00:06:05.154
Oh, I have an idea for a story.

00:06:05.154 --> 00:06:06.235
Let me have chat.

00:06:06.254 --> 00:06:07.805
GPT right?

00:06:08.035 --> 00:06:11.855
2000 words for me or punch up my story.

00:06:12.134 --> 00:06:14.564
And so that was not horrible.

00:06:14.564 --> 00:06:17.095
Wasn't great for that particular magazine.

00:06:17.365 --> 00:06:26.189
Not horrible in the scale of bad things that can happen, but let's think about what's going to happen in a broader sense in other areas.

00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:34.819
There are, to take a very simplistic model, and this is oversimplifying but illustrates, there are good people and bad people.

00:06:34.819 --> 00:06:56.269
Good people say, I want to have correct, accurate information, and bad people who aren't worried about the correctness of the information, they feel their point is valid, and they might feel they're right for doing this, but they will put out conspiracy theories and lies and misinformation because Or whatever their goal is, even if they believe their goal is noble.

00:06:56.870 --> 00:07:01.610
So if we're taking the premise that correct information is preferential for society, what happens?

00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:12.680
The people who say, I want to make sure my information is fact checked, accurate, correct, they will spend the time, let me go research this, let me make sure, let me proofread it.

00:07:13.180 --> 00:07:20.420
The people who say, I just need conspiracy theories, they're going to generate it and not bother checking for correctness.

00:07:20.660 --> 00:07:22.060
And they can now generate.

00:07:22.415 --> 00:07:25.084
A hundredfold what they could a few years ago.

00:07:25.095 --> 00:07:31.615
What was me sitting there writing up an article for two hours Well now I can write a hundred articles in two hours.

00:07:32.095 --> 00:07:48.910
And so we're going to see this tsunami of misinformation overwhelm society Yeah, and neither human decision making nor the algorithmic systems we have in place today are ready for that type of wave of misinformation.

00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:53.769
So we're going to have a lot of early bumps as we try to deal with this new normal.

00:07:54.459 --> 00:08:00.040
The other area where we're going to see a big societal disruption is job change.

00:08:00.250 --> 00:08:07.120
Now, I don't think AI is quite the, or LLM specifically is quite the, Oh my God, we're all going to lose our jobs in the next few years.

00:08:07.379 --> 00:08:10.949
It's not going to take away a massive amount of jobs.

00:08:11.420 --> 00:08:15.850
Some people, if you're a copywriter, yeah, there's a lot of competition for you.

00:08:16.910 --> 00:08:21.290
But we're going to see jobs start to erode, and we will see job change.

00:08:21.714 --> 00:08:23.115
Faster than ever before.

00:08:23.435 --> 00:08:24.954
That's faster is key.

00:08:25.355 --> 00:08:28.365
Because if you think back, we've lost milkmen.

00:08:28.875 --> 00:08:31.745
We've lost most travel agents.

00:08:31.964 --> 00:08:33.625
We've lost tollbooth collectors.

00:08:33.965 --> 00:08:36.115
Most farm workers of the 19th century.

00:08:36.115 --> 00:08:37.465
Those jobs don't exist anymore.

00:08:37.495 --> 00:08:41.414
And we're all okay with this because we said, let's replace those jobs.

00:08:41.414 --> 00:08:42.654
Let's automate them away.

00:08:42.995 --> 00:08:49.184
And now we can host podcasts and do social media and do a whole bunch of other things that we couldn't do back then.

00:08:49.674 --> 00:08:51.065
So we're good.

00:08:51.384 --> 00:09:01.875
With job changes, what's bad is when they happen so rapidly and society isn't yet ready to take all those displaced people, retrain them and put them into new jobs.

00:09:02.065 --> 00:09:07.585
And then we have a large workforce that's displaced and unable to find work and that's a societal problem.

00:09:07.894 --> 00:09:13.524
So those are the two main areas that we have to worry about in the short term.

00:09:14.304 --> 00:09:28.634
of AI causing problems in the long term, I do think once we get through this, which might be not just years, but even decades, we will get to a point where it is beneficial, assuming we can limit the harmful use of it.

00:09:29.215 --> 00:09:29.554
Yeah.

00:09:30.294 --> 00:09:37.345
You know, I'm curious about the first point there with the, uh, information that's being generated and in particular misinformation.

00:09:37.815 --> 00:09:41.544
I do believe we're in a time where it's clearly rampant, right?

00:09:41.654 --> 00:09:56.245
and I think, it's creating a further mistrust, in our society, In our leadership, and in our media, I'm curious to know how you think that this will evolve, will there be laws that require fact checking or such?

00:09:56.495 --> 00:10:06.695
I think laws get tricky because we have a very strong First Amendment belief, which generally I think is good for us, right?

00:10:06.745 --> 00:10:16.245
Unless you are intentionally saying very harmful information, it's very hard to go after someone for it because of Section 2 30.

00:10:16.245 --> 00:10:19.355
This is one of the rules in the Internet's early days.

00:10:19.784 --> 00:10:22.664
Where you had companies back then like AOL saying, wait a second.

00:10:22.664 --> 00:10:25.914
What if someone posts something bad on our chat forums?

00:10:25.914 --> 00:10:30.315
And now of course on social media and so section 230 said, you know what?

00:10:30.335 --> 00:10:42.404
We're not going to hold you responsible just like if someone picks up the phone call someone else and Provides misinformation or does harmful things, makes threats, whatever we said.

00:10:42.404 --> 00:10:45.355
Well, we're not gonna hold the telephone company responsible for that.

00:10:45.605 --> 00:10:51.845
If you send a bad telegram through Western Union, we don't hold Western Union responsible for the content of that.

00:10:52.215 --> 00:10:57.294
And so we gave the same rights to a lot of media companies online.

00:10:57.294 --> 00:11:04.190
We said you're not responsible for the millions of users, and there's arguably some good to that, but we're It's a problem.

00:11:04.330 --> 00:11:05.970
No one holds them responsible.

00:11:05.970 --> 00:11:10.450
And yes, in theory, if you spread lies about me, I can take you to court.

00:11:11.049 --> 00:11:19.690
Don't hold your breath that the court system is going to really find justice or that can handle the type of volume given the massive amounts of content that are put out.

00:11:20.340 --> 00:11:24.330
We do teach people how to, to deal with this.

00:11:24.340 --> 00:11:36.159
If you remember back, probably to middle school, when you went into the library, and the librarians taught you about research, and fact checking, and looking at primary sources, and why primary sources are better than secondary sources.

00:11:36.629 --> 00:11:41.070
We were all taught this, but most people forgot it, and they don't apply it.

00:11:41.495 --> 00:11:44.004
And now here we are saying, well, I don't have time to check.

00:11:44.024 --> 00:11:46.355
I just trust what I see.

00:11:46.605 --> 00:11:52.825
And you got this quotes like, you know, Abraham Lincoln once said 87 percent of what you see on the worldwide web is false.

00:11:52.879 --> 00:12:04.830
What we need are tools that can help us create chains of trust where we can say, okay, this piece of information, where did it come from?

00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:06.710
Did it come from the New York Times?

00:12:06.980 --> 00:12:10.110
Okay, I will generally trust their fact checkers.

00:12:10.110 --> 00:12:11.450
They're not 100 percent perfect.

00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:14.750
No one is, but I know they step up and do a good job.

00:12:15.179 --> 00:12:17.539
Do I trust a particular organization?

00:12:18.009 --> 00:12:19.360
Maybe some nonprofit group.

00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:25.139
If, for example, AARP or Consumer Reports says something.

00:12:25.139 --> 00:12:30.830
I generally trust those groups to be on top of their game and make sure they're not putting out false things.

00:12:31.100 --> 00:12:33.899
Some random guy in a basement, do I trust him?

00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:35.279
Probably not.

00:12:35.590 --> 00:12:43.304
And so if we can start to say, let's trace the origin of this and have tools to say, here's the origin of this information.

00:12:43.315 --> 00:12:44.294
Here's where it started.

00:12:44.544 --> 00:12:45.315
Here's the source.

00:12:45.315 --> 00:12:46.684
And here's your level of trust.

00:12:46.684 --> 00:13:00.845
Either you directly or I look at who people I trust, how much they trust that person, these chains of trust, then it's going to be a lot easier because I don't have to sit there and say, now I have to research, did Abe Lincoln really say that about the World Wide Web?

00:13:01.195 --> 00:13:06.054
I can just rely on this to say, is this a trustworthy channel or not?

00:13:06.865 --> 00:13:07.205
Yeah.

00:13:07.544 --> 00:13:08.014
Interesting.

00:13:09.054 --> 00:13:12.725
So let, let's talk a little bit more about your.

00:13:13.424 --> 00:13:21.705
career, actually, even before your career, I, or no, I actually want to look into, I want to learn how to hack like you do.

00:13:22.934 --> 00:13:27.615
So, you know, you at a young age, you're a chess champion.

00:13:27.615 --> 00:13:34.034
You've, you've gotten into, teach at the best institutions in the world and worked for companies like that.

00:13:34.034 --> 00:13:39.424
How I'm curious as to let's take any problem, anything you want to, you decide you want to do.

00:13:40.004 --> 00:13:42.384
How do you decide to get into it?

00:13:44.695 --> 00:13:54.975
When I find something interesting and sometimes I fall into it, sometimes it's things I direct myself towards, I then work to learn about it.

00:13:55.054 --> 00:13:56.054
I'll give you an example.

00:13:56.774 --> 00:14:00.115
My book was not something I ever intended to write.

00:14:00.835 --> 00:14:06.565
It fell into me because I started teaching at MIT for a couple of decades now.

00:14:06.995 --> 00:14:10.784
And then I thought, well, let me write up some notes for the class.

00:14:10.884 --> 00:14:13.654
Because this is a class that's hands on, it's interactive.

00:14:13.904 --> 00:14:16.735
People tend to do, and they're not saying they're taking notes.

00:14:16.754 --> 00:14:18.205
So I know they forget a lot of this.

00:14:18.705 --> 00:14:20.514
I thought, you know what, I should write up notes for students.

00:14:20.514 --> 00:14:22.254
I've been asking for years that we do this.

00:14:22.284 --> 00:14:22.924
No one's done it.

00:14:24.245 --> 00:14:30.845
I thought I was writing 10, 20 pages of notes, but 20 pages turned into 40 into 80.

00:14:30.845 --> 00:14:32.544
And once it passed a hundred, I said, you know what?

00:14:32.544 --> 00:14:33.784
I think I'm doing a book.

00:14:34.375 --> 00:14:34.774
Okay.

00:14:34.774 --> 00:14:35.914
So now I'm doing a book.

00:14:36.779 --> 00:14:37.389
What now?

00:14:38.350 --> 00:14:45.370
I went out, I read about 1, 500 articles on every aspect of publishing I could find to understand the industry.

00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:48.629
I reached out to friends of mine who were in the industry.

00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:50.309
Some were authors themselves.

00:14:50.490 --> 00:14:54.750
Some were professionals you go to when you're trying to create a book.

00:14:55.610 --> 00:15:00.190
Others were just people who, a literary agent for example, just people I knew in the industry.

00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:03.639
I sat down with them, I asked them for advice, I asked them for input.

00:15:04.139 --> 00:15:05.559
And that helped guide me.

00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:07.690
So I don't just go into something cold.

00:15:07.700 --> 00:15:10.750
When I start and go down a path, I say, let me learn about it.

00:15:11.090 --> 00:15:18.139
Even if this doesn't seem relevant, I want to learn just these tangential parts because somehow down the road that might come back and be relevant to me.

00:15:18.605 --> 00:15:18.965
Yeah.

00:15:19.644 --> 00:15:20.115
All right.

00:15:20.125 --> 00:15:21.274
That's quite a bit there.

00:15:21.365 --> 00:15:23.144
So 1, 500 articles.

00:15:23.195 --> 00:15:26.245
what, how did that search for those articles begin?

00:15:26.264 --> 00:15:28.985
how did you identify which 1, 500 you were going to read?

00:15:29.264 --> 00:15:31.754
Is, you know, things like that.

00:15:31.754 --> 00:15:33.475
It wasn't all 1, 500 good ones.

00:15:33.485 --> 00:15:37.664
It was a search and then we'd go, I'd read it.

00:15:37.664 --> 00:15:38.544
That's not good.

00:15:38.904 --> 00:15:39.274
Read it.

00:15:39.304 --> 00:15:39.784
Okay.

00:15:39.784 --> 00:15:41.245
I've seen that written there.

00:15:41.475 --> 00:15:43.674
Or, hey, this is interesting, this is helpful.

00:15:43.845 --> 00:15:45.085
And I just saved it off.

00:15:45.105 --> 00:15:48.534
I put it into a spreadsheet that I just maintained.

00:15:49.085 --> 00:15:50.955
So, knowing I'm going to go back to Slator.

00:15:51.245 --> 00:15:54.034
I wasn't at doing a launch party yet, for example.

00:15:54.044 --> 00:15:58.794
If I said, well, at some point I will be, let me save this article on a book launch party.

00:15:59.294 --> 00:16:01.254
Let me save this article on marketing.

00:16:01.254 --> 00:16:05.365
Or let me save this article on things like, what goes on your back cover?

00:16:06.065 --> 00:16:08.434
Still writing the book, but one day I will get there.

00:16:09.315 --> 00:16:12.985
once you have something for yourself, it's very easy to share with others.

00:16:13.294 --> 00:16:20.754
So at that point, I just started sending it when people, they knew I had written a book and sometimes her friend would say, Hey, I've got this other friend doing a book.

00:16:20.975 --> 00:16:22.195
Can you talk to her?

00:16:22.534 --> 00:16:23.315
Yeah, sure.

00:16:23.485 --> 00:16:25.855
And now I could send her that list and be helpful to her.

00:16:26.365 --> 00:16:29.365
That list now it's public on one of my websites.

00:16:29.845 --> 00:16:31.534
And so it's not 1500 articles.

00:16:31.534 --> 00:16:36.225
It's the 200 some most useful articles organized by category.

00:16:36.544 --> 00:16:39.154
But I did for myself and then I could just easily share with others.

00:16:40.144 --> 00:16:40.544
Excellent.

00:16:41.264 --> 00:16:47.794
So along the way, when you're organizing all of these thoughts to share with others, that also helps you further understand it.

00:16:47.804 --> 00:16:49.644
you learn and then you teach kind of thing.

00:16:49.644 --> 00:16:51.674
And that helps it all come together.

00:16:52.445 --> 00:16:57.375
Richard Feynman once said the best way to make sure you understand something is to teach it to someone else.

00:16:57.644 --> 00:16:57.845
Yeah.

00:16:58.490 --> 00:16:59.039
Yeah, brilliant.

00:17:00.090 --> 00:17:00.309
Good.

00:17:00.340 --> 00:17:10.200
And then the people, you said some of them you knew, some of them you aren't, so how would you, the folks you didn't know, would you just do a cold outreach or, hey, I'm, Mark, I'm writing a book.

00:17:10.210 --> 00:17:11.490
These were all people I knew.

00:17:11.819 --> 00:17:12.660
Oh, all of them were.

00:17:12.710 --> 00:17:13.069
Okay.

00:17:13.250 --> 00:17:15.619
I've built up an extensive network.

00:17:15.859 --> 00:17:20.740
Too many people in this world, when I think about their network, they say, Well, I work in this industry.

00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:22.710
I only need to know people in this industry.

00:17:23.369 --> 00:17:26.990
In fact, I've had people where they're looking for a job.

00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:28.599
I say, Oh, well, tell me what you're looking for.

00:17:28.609 --> 00:17:29.509
Maybe I can help.

00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:31.299
Oh, you don't work in my industry.

00:17:32.369 --> 00:17:36.619
That is a true statement, but I may know people who work in your industry.

00:17:36.930 --> 00:17:39.500
I don't look at people as, can you help me here?

00:17:39.500 --> 00:17:40.839
And now, right.

00:17:41.220 --> 00:17:42.670
You seem like a good person.

00:17:42.819 --> 00:17:44.279
Let's build that relationship.

00:17:45.099 --> 00:17:52.785
And then it turns out years later, these people I had met, Oh, now I'm Crossing a certain space of your Venn diagrams are overlapping.

00:17:53.105 --> 00:17:54.984
Good thing I've gotten to know you over the years.

00:17:55.015 --> 00:17:56.444
Now I can talk to you.

00:17:56.484 --> 00:17:57.244
Now I can get help.

00:17:57.825 --> 00:17:58.125
Yeah.

00:17:59.325 --> 00:18:00.545
Yeah, that, that's a good point.

00:18:00.605 --> 00:18:06.994
I believe in your book you talk about how to access a corporate culture, and that kind of goes along those lines I would imagine, right?

00:18:07.154 --> 00:18:10.865
So, how would you access a corporate culture?

00:18:12.434 --> 00:18:13.994
Under, there's two parts to this.

00:18:14.025 --> 00:18:27.670
There's before you join the company, trying to understand, making sure the culture is going to align, and then once you're in the company, trying to really learn and, Adapt to the company's culture ahead of time.

00:18:27.670 --> 00:18:37.950
Certainly you can do it by reaching out, using your network, asking people either who are first degree connections or maybe get connected to second degree connections to learn about the company.

00:18:38.309 --> 00:18:40.119
Obviously you can read about online.

00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:43.759
You can go to sites like last door dot com, see what people are saying.

00:18:44.069 --> 00:18:46.609
You can look at their media and content.

00:18:46.630 --> 00:18:48.289
What type of voice do they have?

00:18:48.289 --> 00:18:49.750
What's their brand image?

00:18:50.019 --> 00:18:51.190
Even just looking at.

00:18:51.539 --> 00:18:59.549
Pictures they post online of corporate events, is everyone there in a suit and tie, or people in Hawaiian shirts, starts to tell you a little something about the culture.

00:19:00.329 --> 00:19:03.900
Now, there's also questions, by the way, that you can ask during an interview.

00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:37.329
And on my website, that we'll give you at the end, There's a list of questions because so many people say I don't know how to ask about culture and so this is a list of questions that you can have with you to say I want to during the interview process i'm assessing you the company as well as you're assessing me Here's how I am going to assess you and even how you broach this topic how you can bring it up So it doesn't feel awkward, but then once you're in the company It's really understanding those unwritten rules about what's happening in the company And here's the thing about corporate culture.

00:19:38.269 --> 00:19:48.809
Corporate culture is not the five to 10 values that are posted on the company's website about focusing on the customer or delivering value or whatever platitudes they have.

00:19:49.660 --> 00:19:50.569
Those are nice.

00:19:50.740 --> 00:19:52.779
Some companies follow them, some companies don't.

00:19:53.289 --> 00:20:01.880
But the true culture, the real culture, is day to day how things operate, the unwritten rules.

00:20:02.420 --> 00:20:05.109
Is it that everyone shows up to meetings on time?

00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:07.579
Or is it that people are perpetually running late?

00:20:07.910 --> 00:20:10.240
Is it a culture where people send lots of emails?

00:20:10.390 --> 00:20:12.150
Or you should be having face to face meetings?

00:20:12.980 --> 00:20:15.150
Can you deliver bad news to your boss?

00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:16.940
Or does your boss not take it well?

00:20:17.589 --> 00:20:19.200
That is your culture.

00:20:19.470 --> 00:20:24.589
Those are the rules that you work around every day, even though they're not posted on the company's website.

00:20:24.910 --> 00:20:26.390
And those are very subtle.

00:20:26.890 --> 00:20:39.474
And that's what's going to make or break Your happiness at a job and really the effectiveness of a given team and that culture, by the way, it might be company wide companies might say, Oh, here, everyone shows up on time.

00:20:39.474 --> 00:20:50.724
That's our company culture, not written on the website, not one of the seven values, but it's how we act or it could be well, this manager is just the type of guy operates his employees.

00:20:50.954 --> 00:20:52.015
This manager over here.

00:20:52.015 --> 00:20:52.974
She's very supportive.

00:20:53.105 --> 00:20:58.654
And so you will have different cultures within those teams again, completely unwritten and probably never talked about.

00:20:58.654 --> 00:20:58.704
Yeah.

00:21:00.345 --> 00:21:05.644
Now, that, that's a really interesting, perspective, I never really thought about that.

00:21:06.224 --> 00:21:12.724
I know you're going to give away the questions you mentioned, I'm curious if you can share one with us now to help uncover that.

00:21:12.835 --> 00:21:18.375
These are many of the questions that you yourself probably get asked.

00:21:19.184 --> 00:21:20.285
It's reversing it.

00:21:20.744 --> 00:21:20.964
Okay.

00:21:20.974 --> 00:21:42.154
So for example, Give me three words that describe the culture of this particular team, and then tell me why you've selected those three words, or give me examples of each one, because of course, anytime you answer a question as a candidate, or you're asking the other side to answer, you want to show, not tell, you want to give concrete examples.

00:21:42.575 --> 00:21:43.494
So you can ask questions.

00:21:43.924 --> 00:21:45.315
What's your management style?

00:21:45.345 --> 00:21:47.045
How would you describe your style?

00:21:48.295 --> 00:21:52.974
What do you think makes someone work well in your management style?

00:21:53.394 --> 00:21:54.244
Questions like that.

00:21:55.865 --> 00:21:56.184
Got it.

00:21:56.444 --> 00:21:56.825
Okay.

00:21:56.845 --> 00:22:03.684
Well, along the lines of asking questions, you also talk about how to just be a better interviewer or interviewee.

00:22:04.710 --> 00:22:10.779
I'm asking as an interviewer in a podcast show, but I'm assuming you were talking about it with a job, right?

00:22:11.490 --> 00:22:11.880
Yes.

00:22:11.890 --> 00:22:22.039
For a job because here you're presumably not assessing whether you're going to hire me or not, but as a job, we really do want to assess the capability to make a very important and expensive decision.

00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:24.299
Yeah.

00:22:24.299 --> 00:22:25.470
So what are those?

00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:27.779
I think you've hinted on some already.

00:22:27.789 --> 00:22:32.829
Like, oftentimes we go in for jobs and we think, okay, I just got to say what it takes to get the job.

00:22:32.829 --> 00:22:33.109
Right.

00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:36.309
and that's a, but I think is a backwards way of doing it.

00:22:36.309 --> 00:22:39.680
We really should be deciding, Hey, do we belong here first?

00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:39.920
Right.

00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:45.509
But what are some other, tips for both the interviewer and the interviewee?

00:22:46.519 --> 00:22:53.970
Now these questions, by the way, they're also available for free on my website and they're in the app as well that we're going to talk about, the Brain Bump app.

00:22:55.019 --> 00:22:59.740
But the questions really come down to assessing what's important.

00:23:00.259 --> 00:23:03.299
so many interviewers, make a mistake.

00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:05.019
We fall for the street lamp effect.

00:23:05.490 --> 00:23:12.539
if you're not familiar with it, the street lamp effect, is this old joke about a drunk man staggering around the street.

00:23:13.295 --> 00:23:15.724
A police officer sees him and says, Are you okay, sir?

00:23:15.775 --> 00:23:16.494
what's going on?

00:23:16.795 --> 00:23:18.654
He says, Oh, I've lost my house keys.

00:23:19.315 --> 00:23:21.125
Officer says, Okay, I'm going to help you look for them.

00:23:21.365 --> 00:23:25.755
They spend half an hour going up and down the street, looking in every spot.

00:23:25.755 --> 00:23:28.924
After half an hour, the officer says, We've looked everywhere.

00:23:28.974 --> 00:23:30.325
We're just, we're not finding your keys.

00:23:30.365 --> 00:23:32.130
Are you sure this is where you lost them?

00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:35.089
And Drunk says, No, no, no, officer.

00:23:35.089 --> 00:23:36.990
I lost him over there in the park.

00:23:37.710 --> 00:23:43.700
She says, Well, if you lost him in the park, why are we here on Maple Street going up and down the street for the last half hour?

00:23:44.170 --> 00:23:48.299
And Drunk says, Well, it's dark out and there aren't any street lamps over in the park.

00:23:48.744 --> 00:23:55.065
Yeah, you're looking on the street because it's easy to look on the street, even if it's not helpful.

00:23:55.444 --> 00:23:58.305
And so we tend to assess what's easy.

00:23:58.785 --> 00:24:03.305
Do you have X years of experience with this particular tool or product or industry?

00:24:03.625 --> 00:24:04.795
Very easy to assess.

00:24:04.795 --> 00:24:06.355
Let's talk about your prior jobs.

00:24:06.785 --> 00:24:10.835
Do you know this model you learned in your MBA classes?

00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:12.930
Yes or no, I can assess that.

00:24:13.650 --> 00:24:18.109
Figuring out if you're a good leader, how the heck do you do that?

00:24:18.380 --> 00:24:19.299
That's much harder.

00:24:19.309 --> 00:24:21.740
We haven't taught people how to do that.

00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:28.529
So many people struggle to figure out how they can be a good leader, let alone how to recognize leadership in someone else.

00:24:29.250 --> 00:24:32.150
But leadership might be really important for this role.

00:24:33.559 --> 00:24:41.440
You probably see on job descriptions, especially if you're getting into your mid career, senior career, strong leadership and communication skills.

00:24:42.045 --> 00:24:46.595
I see this list on so many job posts and to be fair, years ago I used to put it on mine.

00:24:47.085 --> 00:24:48.634
Now, we all want this.

00:24:50.494 --> 00:24:52.904
Do they know how to actually assess it?

00:24:53.664 --> 00:24:57.255
Have they thought through, when a candidate comes in, how do we assess?

00:24:57.640 --> 00:25:00.069
Someone's leadership skills, some communication skills.

00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:01.759
What do we even mean by that?

00:25:02.230 --> 00:25:03.809
We say strong communicators.

00:25:04.049 --> 00:25:08.059
Does that mean you need someone who can get up and do a TED talk?

00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:11.109
Do you need someone comfortable standing in front of 10, 000 people?

00:25:11.289 --> 00:25:18.730
Because those are some great communicators, but probably not what you need unless maybe you're an executive and you will be standing on big stages.

00:25:18.730 --> 00:25:21.730
Do you mean people can write succinct emails?

00:25:21.789 --> 00:25:25.559
That might be what you're looking for, even if the same person gets stage fright.

00:25:25.859 --> 00:25:27.559
That's a different type of communication.

00:25:27.849 --> 00:25:28.349
And.

00:25:28.585 --> 00:25:34.255
People have not thought about, this is what we need, and now how do we assess it?

00:25:34.484 --> 00:25:36.555
So that's what we have to do as interviewers.

00:25:38.115 --> 00:25:38.974
tell us about the app.

00:25:39.315 --> 00:25:41.375
Well, I understand it was made for the book.

00:25:41.424 --> 00:25:43.394
So maybe why don't we start there first.

00:25:43.404 --> 00:25:44.605
Tell us more about the book.

00:25:44.605 --> 00:25:49.464
When I wrote the book, I recognized there was a problem with books.

00:25:49.890 --> 00:25:53.369
and blogs and podcasts, classes, talks.

00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:59.220
There is a disconnect that where you read information isn't where you need information.

00:25:59.720 --> 00:26:03.059
We talked about questions that you can use in your interview.

00:26:03.700 --> 00:26:05.069
Where did you hear about that?

00:26:05.180 --> 00:26:09.730
Probably as you're out for a jog, driving to the office, wherever you're listening to a podcast.

00:26:10.099 --> 00:26:11.700
Where do you need those questions?

00:26:12.150 --> 00:26:15.210
Six months later, when you're actually interviewing for a new job.

00:26:15.750 --> 00:26:18.759
The odds that you will still remember it by then are pretty slim.

00:26:19.740 --> 00:26:21.940
Maybe you've bookmarked the website.

00:26:22.380 --> 00:26:23.309
Eh, probably not.

00:26:24.269 --> 00:26:25.279
Networking tips.

00:26:25.380 --> 00:26:26.000
Where do you read them?

00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:26.380
At home.

00:26:26.390 --> 00:26:27.019
Where do you need them?

00:26:27.130 --> 00:26:28.250
At the conference.

00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:29.650
Leadership.

00:26:30.009 --> 00:26:32.400
You might know where you need it, but not when.

00:26:32.869 --> 00:26:39.130
And so we get this disconnect in time and space from when we learn something to when we apply it, and we're going to forget it.

00:26:39.900 --> 00:26:40.960
So I created the app.

00:26:41.670 --> 00:26:42.220
Brain Bump.

00:26:42.250 --> 00:26:43.769
This is a completely free app.

00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:46.029
Brain Bump is on the Apple and Android stores.

00:26:46.059 --> 00:26:47.059
100 percent free.

00:26:47.390 --> 00:26:49.099
You don't even need an account to log in.

00:26:49.109 --> 00:26:50.000
No credit card.

00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:51.230
We don't take data.

00:26:51.509 --> 00:26:52.529
We don't sell data.

00:26:52.549 --> 00:26:53.809
We don't have ads.

00:26:53.960 --> 00:26:55.029
All completely free.

00:26:55.789 --> 00:27:01.660
This takes the key ideas from books, blogs, podcasts, classes, talks.

00:27:02.450 --> 00:27:03.630
They all go into the app.

00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:07.049
So in my book, it's like you went through my book with a highlighter.

00:27:07.869 --> 00:27:09.109
Oh, this is a key point.

00:27:09.130 --> 00:27:10.509
Oh, that's the interview question.

00:27:10.509 --> 00:27:10.890
Remember?

00:27:10.890 --> 00:27:12.190
Oh, here's the networking tip.

00:27:12.569 --> 00:27:13.849
They're all in the app.

00:27:13.849 --> 00:27:19.980
the content creator, the author, the podcaster, whoever puts all of those in there for free.

00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:22.410
I don't say, Oh, prove that you bought the book.

00:27:22.420 --> 00:27:24.670
You can go download all these tips for free.

00:27:25.529 --> 00:27:27.440
They're all in the app for you.

00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:28.539
So they're in your pocket.

00:27:28.849 --> 00:27:30.759
And then you use it one of two ways.

00:27:31.450 --> 00:27:35.319
If you have that interview later today, you open up the app.

00:27:35.371 --> 00:27:37.921
You go to the tips and everything is tagged by topic.

00:27:37.931 --> 00:27:42.830
So you might look for interviewing or interview questions or whatever the appropriate tag is.

00:27:42.830 --> 00:27:46.141
If you're at the conference, as you're in the lobby, you tap networking.

00:27:46.340 --> 00:27:50.131
And there's all those networking tips right when and where you need it.

00:27:50.340 --> 00:27:52.790
So you can get that just in time access.

00:27:53.671 --> 00:27:58.310
Or other things that you're trying to learn, we know spaced repetition works.

00:27:58.421 --> 00:27:59.921
You have to see something over and over.

00:27:59.921 --> 00:28:03.861
It's why we use flashcards to study for the SATs or our finals.

00:28:03.861 --> 00:28:03.880
Thanks.

00:28:04.471 --> 00:28:06.230
But there's no test for us as adults.

00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:10.500
For the most part, you don't read a book like mine and say, Oh, I bear cram for the test.

00:28:10.840 --> 00:28:16.111
So you forget you listen to this podcast and you have great advice and all your episodes, but no one's trying to study them.

00:28:16.641 --> 00:28:16.980
Right?

00:28:17.040 --> 00:28:24.651
So we take the tips again, those kind of quotes, those nuggets, those takeaways are in the app and you set up what's like a daily affirmation.

00:28:24.651 --> 00:28:27.421
So you know what I want to get a leadership tip.

00:28:27.891 --> 00:28:28.380
9 a.

00:28:28.381 --> 00:28:31.510
m., Monday through Friday, right as I walk in the office.

00:28:32.161 --> 00:28:33.641
Oh, and then I'm a new parent.

00:28:33.971 --> 00:28:36.589
I want to get a parenting tip at 5.

00:28:36.590 --> 00:28:37.691
55 p.

00:28:37.691 --> 00:28:40.121
m., right before I walk in the door when I'm at home.

00:28:40.951 --> 00:28:42.050
And here's the key.

00:28:42.601 --> 00:28:49.121
When we follow people on social media, we get this fire hose of content that may or may not be relevant.

00:28:49.550 --> 00:28:49.881
Yeah.

00:28:50.230 --> 00:28:50.891
Okay, fine.

00:28:50.891 --> 00:28:52.141
That's a good leadership tip.

00:28:53.631 --> 00:28:57.221
I'm not worried about my leadership at this moment when I saw your tip.

00:28:58.056 --> 00:28:59.096
So it's not relevant.

00:28:59.105 --> 00:29:00.316
My brain says, get out of here.

00:29:00.316 --> 00:29:01.465
I'm focused on strategy.

00:29:01.465 --> 00:29:05.195
I'm focused on parenting what the app does.

00:29:05.215 --> 00:29:07.726
And I think this is going to be a change in media in general.

00:29:07.736 --> 00:29:11.996
Brain bump is just one of what hopefully will be many apps and services.

00:29:12.346 --> 00:29:15.016
It creates a type of whole media.

00:29:15.766 --> 00:29:24.955
Where you can basically say, I need this content at this time, and it gets delivered to you, so you always get relevance for when and where you are.

00:29:25.715 --> 00:29:31.905
And for the user, you get that spaced repetition that's always relevant, it's going to help you remember it, or pull it up just in time.

00:29:32.476 --> 00:29:39.135
And for the content creator, the author, the podcaster, whoever, their brand is always shown along with the tip.

00:29:39.465 --> 00:29:42.415
So they get that brand awareness, that brand trust.

00:29:43.036 --> 00:29:45.385
And it's hyperlinked back to their content.

00:29:45.726 --> 00:29:51.125
So for a podcast or a blog, they see, of course, the source and they see the cover image.

00:29:51.576 --> 00:29:55.536
They can click through to hear the episode, to read that article.

00:29:55.726 --> 00:29:58.185
And so it helps take the evergreen content.

00:29:58.721 --> 00:30:27.181
That's going to be because if you're doing leadership advice that was valid five years ago will be valid five years from now It doesn't change that much When people are missing what you posted five years ago this brings it to people when it's relevant for them So the content itself you're providing already or is this something I would grab as i'm going around reading articles You know the 1500 articles It's both the app right now Think of it almost like a Kindle.

00:30:27.391 --> 00:30:29.381
There's a whole bunch of sets of tips.

00:30:29.560 --> 00:30:30.760
It's preloaded with some.

00:30:31.641 --> 00:30:34.861
we're adding new content every month.

00:30:35.111 --> 00:30:35.411
Got it.

00:30:35.431 --> 00:30:41.230
So we're, we're gonna just always have more and more and you can say I want these or those or whatever's relevant to you.

00:30:41.611 --> 00:30:48.161
If we don't have what you want, because at the end of the day there are literally millions of books and podcasts and we're never gonna have them all.

00:30:48.711 --> 00:30:53.500
You yourself can add your own tips or ideas on the app.

00:30:53.691 --> 00:30:55.250
You do have to create an account for that.

00:30:55.820 --> 00:31:01.800
Or currently at the time where we're speaking, which is summer of 2024, you can upload it.

00:31:01.800 --> 00:31:09.980
If you've got a Kindle book and you've done highlights in the Kindle book, you can export that highlight file from your Kindle and import into the app.

00:31:10.340 --> 00:31:13.441
And then you've got all your tips right there in your pocket.

00:31:13.820 --> 00:31:15.411
We're going to look for other.

00:31:16.115 --> 00:31:17.226
Integrations down the road.

00:31:17.855 --> 00:31:18.296
Okay.

00:31:19.276 --> 00:31:21.566
and the book came from this.

00:31:21.566 --> 00:31:26.945
Is that, is that how you teach people to, I mean, it went that way first.

00:31:26.945 --> 00:31:28.915
You came up with the book and then an app for the book?

00:31:28.915 --> 00:31:32.836
Is that how, and It began with a class at MIT.

00:31:32.836 --> 00:31:37.715
So we had gotten feedback from companies saying, look, you're Your students were obviously smart people.

00:31:37.935 --> 00:31:39.576
There are skills we're looking for.

00:31:40.125 --> 00:31:44.486
Leadership, networking, communication, team building, negotiation.

00:31:44.875 --> 00:31:47.705
We need these skills and people we hire and we can't find it.

00:31:47.935 --> 00:31:51.645
Not just in your students, not just in engineers or college students.

00:31:51.925 --> 00:31:55.486
Universally, we want these skills and candidates don't have them.

00:31:56.355 --> 00:31:59.756
MIT said, well, okay, we're trying to make people you want to hire.

00:32:00.226 --> 00:32:01.726
We need to introduce these skills.

00:32:02.266 --> 00:32:03.865
And they start a program to do it.

00:32:03.865 --> 00:32:06.766
I got involved in getting that program off the ground.

00:32:06.766 --> 00:32:08.165
I've been teaching there ever since.

00:32:08.776 --> 00:32:11.365
That led to, I should write up notes for this class.

00:32:12.226 --> 00:32:20.955
Turned into the book, although the book is not written for undergraduate engineering students, it's the same concepts, but written for a more general audience.

00:32:21.076 --> 00:32:26.796
So regardless of your age, experience level, your industry, this book was written for you.

00:32:27.846 --> 00:32:30.756
And then I said, well, people will forget what's in the book.

00:32:31.355 --> 00:32:35.276
So I first created an app just for my book and other authors liked the idea.

00:32:35.276 --> 00:32:37.306
I said, well, let me make this a general app.

00:32:37.586 --> 00:32:39.385
So it's not just my content.

00:32:39.395 --> 00:32:41.205
We can put in content from anyone.

00:32:41.476 --> 00:32:43.125
And that's what led to the Brain Bump app.

00:32:44.145 --> 00:32:44.496
Yeah.

00:32:44.766 --> 00:32:45.036
Wow.

00:32:45.036 --> 00:32:47.895
That's That sounds, that sounds excellent.

00:32:47.925 --> 00:32:57.976
Yeah, I think, I think oftentimes we go to school to kind of learn the technical aspect that we need for a job, but ultimately the way we rise is through some of those executive skills, right?

00:32:57.976 --> 00:33:00.076
Like leadership and communications and whatnot.

00:33:00.316 --> 00:33:02.566
And our schools haven't done a good job of teaching that.

00:33:02.566 --> 00:33:04.536
So it sounds like you're, you're taking this right on.

00:33:05.131 --> 00:33:07.170
So kudos to you there.

00:33:07.171 --> 00:33:11.480
They're a little out of date in terms of curriculum and there are historical reasons for that.

00:33:11.931 --> 00:33:20.730
I expect it's going to take probably another 20 to 30 years before we finally really start to change that and get the right skills in there.

00:33:20.730 --> 00:33:23.421
I'm not saying we have to get rid of existing skills.

00:33:23.780 --> 00:33:25.290
We need what we're teaching.

00:33:25.290 --> 00:33:28.601
But the world is getting more complicated and there's more to learn.

00:33:29.020 --> 00:33:50.580
You know, I wonder as, taking this back to AI and as our machines learn and are able to do some of those technical jobs, that we traditionally might've gotten hired out of MIT for, do you think that there'll be more and more of an emphasis that maybe will expedite those 20 or 30 years on those executive functioning skills?

00:33:51.980 --> 00:33:53.730
This is a very common question.

00:33:53.740 --> 00:33:57.020
Does AI take away the rote mechanics?

00:33:57.455 --> 00:33:59.645
And the people skills become more important.

00:34:00.455 --> 00:34:09.396
I think not as much as others might push that narrative, which surprises many because I am both a technologist.

00:34:09.405 --> 00:34:13.686
I've got patents related to artificial intelligence and other technologies.

00:34:14.226 --> 00:34:16.065
And of course I teach these skills.

00:34:16.646 --> 00:34:19.376
I think AI is somewhat overhyped.

00:34:20.025 --> 00:34:22.195
Yes, it is fantastic.

00:34:22.925 --> 00:34:31.956
What we've seen when we look at, I'll just pick it because it's most common, we saw a chat GPT 2 to 3 was a game changer and 3 to 4 got even better.

00:34:32.476 --> 00:34:37.416
I don't think chat GPT 7 to 8 is going to look as significant.

00:34:37.416 --> 00:34:43.476
Maybe chat GPT 5 is still a big step, but we're gonna plateau sooner rather than later.

00:34:43.536 --> 00:34:44.376
That's my prediction.

00:34:44.835 --> 00:34:45.606
I could be wrong.

00:34:46.016 --> 00:34:52.376
And so we'll get to a level of, wow, we do have all this automation, just like we've automated other things.

00:34:53.425 --> 00:34:54.795
And we do need these skills.

00:34:54.806 --> 00:34:59.425
I'd say even before AI, we really have needed these skills and just haven't taught them.

00:34:59.666 --> 00:35:10.155
So I don't think it's necessary, necessarily going to say, well, all the kind of mechanical thinking is gone, but it will say, I think creativity.

00:35:11.221 --> 00:35:13.820
is definitely something that will be more emphasized.

00:35:14.300 --> 00:35:15.880
I'm not talking prompt engineering.

00:35:15.900 --> 00:35:20.880
That, by the way, I have one of my top articles, prompt engineering jobs are a mirage.

00:35:21.141 --> 00:35:24.880
Everyone kept talking about prompt engineering jobs of the future and it was utter BS.

00:35:25.221 --> 00:35:27.521
And of course, by 2024, we've seen that play out.

00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:29.690
No one's getting hired for those jobs.

00:35:29.710 --> 00:35:32.530
Those jobs do not exist and never will.

00:35:33.661 --> 00:35:38.320
But I will say this, one of my favorite books, it's a book called Peopleware.

00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:41.400
It's the best book on software I've ever read.

00:35:41.965 --> 00:35:44.275
It's not really about software, it's about management.

00:35:44.666 --> 00:35:54.865
And the thesis of Peopleware is that many software projects fail, they do, not because of technological reasons, but sociological.

00:35:55.576 --> 00:35:57.945
It's not that, oh, we need to have a Ph.

00:35:57.945 --> 00:35:58.226
D.

00:35:58.226 --> 00:35:59.195
to figure this out.

00:36:00.036 --> 00:36:04.606
Most companies out there, most tech companies even, you don't really need Ph.

00:36:04.606 --> 00:36:04.885
D.

00:36:04.885 --> 00:36:05.094
s.

00:36:05.896 --> 00:36:12.036
You can get by a 15 year old could understand your flow, how things work in the business.

00:36:12.565 --> 00:36:15.965
You need people to build it as a coordination of those people.

00:36:16.376 --> 00:36:24.436
It is choosing the right direction, getting everyone coordinated, communicating well and getting everything to just work together.

00:36:24.436 --> 00:36:26.576
The trains to run on time on the right tracks.

00:36:26.956 --> 00:36:27.996
That's the hard part.

00:36:28.005 --> 00:36:29.545
And that's a lot of people skills.

00:36:30.295 --> 00:36:32.746
And that's been true for the past few decades.

00:36:32.905 --> 00:36:35.945
Lack of those skills has caused problems in the workplace.

00:36:36.246 --> 00:36:37.936
So we've absolutely needed the skills.

00:36:37.956 --> 00:36:42.295
I don't think AI is the biggest changer of the importance of those skills.

00:36:42.746 --> 00:36:43.155
Yeah.

00:36:43.255 --> 00:36:43.996
That's interesting.

00:36:44.456 --> 00:36:57.545
You know, I was just at a conference all week for podcasting, actually, the podcast movement conference and AI is like the hottest thing, AI and video are the hottest things in podcasting right now is the big thing I learned.

00:36:57.996 --> 00:37:02.775
But you know, there were maybe, I don't know, 10 or so hosting platforms that were there.

00:37:03.380 --> 00:37:15.496
We all know that and it's interesting because they're pretty much all the same thing now and they brag about they have this ai feature and all the other ones got this one in that but at the end of the day they ended up All being about the same thing.

00:37:16.306 --> 00:37:17.525
and it costs about the same.

00:37:17.525 --> 00:37:19.135
There's no real differentiator.

00:37:19.496 --> 00:37:25.996
And I was talking to a gentleman who's coming up with a new program and he's taking a different approach on it.

00:37:26.025 --> 00:37:31.646
And I was like, well, he he's built a few software companies now had a few successful exits.

00:37:31.646 --> 00:37:33.246
And I was like, why do you want to take this one on?

00:37:33.255 --> 00:38:09.925
That's already got a lot of players and it's highly fragmented and, and, You know, it's not much loyalty and such that they they turn over a lot and it's a well known problem And it turns out like in the podcasting arena, we're still pretty early on According to him and we actually hold on We we have a lower turnover rate than many of the other arenas industries Apparently when people try a software they'll try it for a few months and then you know, they'll go try a different one According to him in podcasting, it's, it's a little longer, but what really shocked me was it was six months.

00:38:10.356 --> 00:38:24.585
So he's going into this because our software in this particular area is only six, you know, the retention rate is only six months and that he considers to be a long time and it just kind of blew my mind.

00:38:24.815 --> 00:38:28.275
I don't know what your thoughts are there on that.

00:38:29.016 --> 00:38:40.456
When you look at an industry like this, when we talk about retention in general, for really any industry, the factors you look at, what's the cost of acquisition of a customer?

00:38:40.755 --> 00:38:44.646
How much time, effort, money does it take to get a customer?

00:38:45.175 --> 00:38:47.036
Then what's that customer's lifetime value?

00:38:47.065 --> 00:38:48.936
How long can you keep them?

00:38:49.246 --> 00:38:49.556
Right.

00:38:50.420 --> 00:38:56.681
How much work is it to move them up from the free model or the low end model into the paid model?

00:38:57.130 --> 00:39:04.420
And as long as you can get a lifetime value greater than your customer acquisition cost, of course, you're going to be profitable.

00:39:05.121 --> 00:39:08.251
But then if you look and say, why is there turnover?

00:39:09.411 --> 00:39:12.460
What can we do to reduce that turnover?

00:39:13.130 --> 00:39:14.760
Then I think there's opportunity.

00:39:15.170 --> 00:39:28.550
I would guess now, It is a competitive market, as you noted, and it's a space where you do have a lot of Burger King, McDonald's to effectively equivalent products, but it's also pretty nascent.

00:39:28.570 --> 00:39:45.590
And a lot of these companies, some have been around a decade or more, but if he sees the opportunity, if he sees demand, if he sees podcasters like yourself, who say, you know, there's just a couple buttons here, there's a couple of features we need, and no one's been building it.

00:39:46.061 --> 00:39:47.570
If he can roll out into market.

00:39:48.150 --> 00:39:51.181
Get those in there and acquire the customers.

00:39:52.260 --> 00:39:55.380
Then they're not going to switch as long as he can deliver the core value.

00:39:55.380 --> 00:39:59.880
Plus these extra features, even when others come in and say, well, we have these features too.

00:40:00.740 --> 00:40:03.641
He can probably retain the customers because people won't want to switch.

00:40:03.641 --> 00:40:07.021
You make it very easy to stay or very hard to switch.

00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:13.150
If you're going to say, do I really want to go down the street for McDonald's when I'm already at Burger King, right?

00:40:13.471 --> 00:40:14.351
You gotta be compelling.

00:40:14.351 --> 00:40:15.391
Maybe I'd go to Morton's.

00:40:15.391 --> 00:40:19.320
I'd leave Burger King for Morton's because that's a step up, but it's just McDonald's.

00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:32.670
Yeah, I might as well stay here because I can get the same type of burger and my guess is that's what he's looking at but it comes down to these different levers of Acquisition lifetime value and how you can retain and keep your customers.

00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:44.360
Yeah, right I just see I guess going back to I think AI is creating this, like this notion that, you know, if we add that in, that everybody's going to flock to us, but everybody's doing it and is flocking to it.

00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:47.920
And it's not making necessarily a better, more reliable product.

00:40:47.981 --> 00:40:48.320
Right?

00:40:48.610 --> 00:40:51.411
So, Yeah, you know, we're on Zoom right now.

00:40:51.771 --> 00:40:55.231
I've tried the different ones that everybody says are so much better.

00:40:55.650 --> 00:41:02.481
and maybe they are in certain ways, but at the end of the day, I went back to Zoom because it's super easy to use and it's very reliable, you know?

00:41:02.690 --> 00:41:10.331
So, and I think people lose focus of that for all the fancy bells and whistles, which I think AI represents right now.

00:41:11.391 --> 00:41:15.030
Zoom is actually a good example because Zoom is certainly not the first.

00:41:15.385 --> 00:41:30.706
No service like this we've had for years, Microsoft teams, and we've had Skype and we've had other tools, but at the right moment in time, as everyone said back in 2020, Oh, we need to get on video.

00:41:31.686 --> 00:41:32.835
Zoom said, here's us.

00:41:32.856 --> 00:41:36.445
And we are easy, easy to get started.

00:41:36.445 --> 00:41:40.206
We're much easier than those other tools, much easier to use.

00:41:40.485 --> 00:41:42.556
And so people went on and they just.

00:41:42.971 --> 00:41:46.681
Captured the market and then you can switch to Skype.

00:41:46.710 --> 00:41:48.161
You can switch to Microsoft Teams.

00:41:48.161 --> 00:41:56.670
You can switch to something else but Why are you going to walk across the street to McDonald's when you're already at Burger King and you know the menu, and it's easy.

00:41:57.181 --> 00:41:59.601
And so we can, we do see this in other industries.

00:41:59.601 --> 00:42:16.110
If you capture people at the right time, as long as you're meeting a sufficient level of service, such that the energy it takes to switch is greater than the marginal value they would get from switching, why would I switch?

00:42:16.360 --> 00:42:16.791
That's right.

00:42:17.260 --> 00:42:17.550
Yeah.

00:42:18.420 --> 00:42:30.210
Well, this is an interesting conversation in the societal conversation, which is actually my, my favorite type of things to talk about, but we are getting to about that time when we talk about our, way world famous wayfinder four.

00:42:30.210 --> 00:42:31.391
So Mark, are you ready?

00:42:32.360 --> 00:42:32.871
Ready for them?

00:42:33.380 --> 00:42:33.610
All right.

00:42:33.610 --> 00:42:34.911
This one's right up your alley.

00:42:35.121 --> 00:42:39.820
Give us a hack that you use every day to just kind of cheat life with.

00:42:39.820 --> 00:42:42.300
I use brain bump.

00:42:42.840 --> 00:42:43.771
I read a lot.

00:42:44.420 --> 00:42:49.601
I try to learn a lot, and very often it goes in one ear and out another.

00:42:50.460 --> 00:42:51.010
Think about it.

00:42:51.201 --> 00:42:54.661
From the last book you read for a few months ago, how much do you remember?

00:42:55.240 --> 00:42:58.081
Hopefully you're a regular listener, listener to this podcast.

00:42:58.371 --> 00:43:00.110
What do you remember from an episode?

00:43:00.516 --> 00:43:02.965
Three months ago, even three weeks ago.

00:43:03.195 --> 00:43:03.496
Yeah.

00:43:03.505 --> 00:43:06.606
But when you use brain bump, you get those reminders.

00:43:06.626 --> 00:43:09.226
And once you see it two, three times you, Oh yeah.

00:43:09.226 --> 00:43:09.516
Okay.

00:43:09.516 --> 00:43:09.735
Right.

00:43:09.735 --> 00:43:10.056
Yeah.

00:43:10.096 --> 00:43:11.266
I'm remembering this now.

00:43:11.525 --> 00:43:16.766
And so for all the time you invest in learning all of a sudden you're getting a much better ROI.

00:43:17.460 --> 00:43:18.271
Yeah, good one.

00:43:19.300 --> 00:43:20.860
So what about a favorite?

00:43:21.201 --> 00:43:27.030
Could be a book, can't use PeopleWear, or a show, or what have you.

00:43:27.351 --> 00:43:31.371
I already listed PeopleWear on my website that we'll give you shortly.

00:43:31.521 --> 00:43:36.501
I actually list probably about 30 books that I either reference or recommend.

00:43:37.240 --> 00:43:39.570
But I'm going to just pick one off that list.

00:43:40.021 --> 00:43:45.420
My friend Olivia Fox Caban wrote a wonderful book called The Charisma Myth.

00:43:46.985 --> 00:43:53.365
And in the Charisma Myth, she talks about charisma is a skill you can learn.

00:43:54.286 --> 00:44:01.385
Yes, some people are born with it, just like some people are natural soccer players and others have to learn and be trained.

00:44:02.135 --> 00:44:06.766
You might be natural, naturally charismatic, but if you're not, you can still learn it.

00:44:06.775 --> 00:44:08.596
And that's true for all the skills in my book.

00:44:08.606 --> 00:44:16.195
There are natural leaders, natural networkers, natural negotiators, but there are many more people who can grow and be trained.

00:44:16.690 --> 00:44:22.070
And by the way, the people who step up and regularly train, they're the ones who usually do better.

00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:24.130
That's right people who are naturals just go.

00:44:24.170 --> 00:44:30.001
Well, i'm good enough I don't have to do the work and then people put in work keep putting it in and keep getting better.

00:44:30.610 --> 00:44:47.181
Yeah, I mean my favorite example of this is tom brady is you know, he was actually nowhere near as gifted as many other quarterbacks of any You know, his generations that he played in football, but he just kept working harder and harder consistently over a long period of time and became the best of all time, right?

00:44:48.431 --> 00:44:48.940
Exactly.

00:44:49.001 --> 00:44:50.110
Hard work pays off.

00:44:50.391 --> 00:44:50.880
Yeah.

00:44:51.221 --> 00:44:52.271
How about advice?

00:44:52.311 --> 00:44:54.420
A piece of advice for your younger self?

00:44:57.001 --> 00:45:01.440
Invest in what we refer to as soft skills.

00:45:02.681 --> 00:45:04.510
Here's a great example I use in the book.

00:45:04.510 --> 00:45:08.231
This came from my friend, Charles Leiserson, who's a professor at MIT.

00:45:09.201 --> 00:45:10.940
He gives this example of a rectangle.

00:45:11.610 --> 00:45:13.911
Imagine you have a rectangle that's 4 by 10.

00:45:14.771 --> 00:45:18.471
You want to increase one of the sides by 2 units to maximize the area.

00:45:19.360 --> 00:45:20.550
Which side do you increase?

00:45:20.900 --> 00:45:22.981
Feel free to pause the podcast if you need to.

00:45:23.510 --> 00:45:25.471
The answer, of course, is the short side.

00:45:25.471 --> 00:45:27.550
We go from 4 to 6, we get 60.

00:45:27.701 --> 00:45:29.061
The other way, guess what's 48?

00:45:30.940 --> 00:45:31.811
Conceptually, what's happening?

00:45:32.811 --> 00:45:38.681
What we're doing by putting those two units on the short side, we're amplifying them by that whole long side.

00:45:39.510 --> 00:45:43.221
Now, all of us have long sides and short sides.

00:45:43.681 --> 00:45:46.021
More than two in fact, but we'll just keep it to two.

00:45:46.431 --> 00:45:48.581
We often focus on our long side.

00:45:49.371 --> 00:45:50.510
Oh, I'm in technology.

00:45:50.561 --> 00:45:53.400
I need to keep Up with technology, I need to get better.

00:45:53.400 --> 00:45:55.521
And certainly if I don't, I become a dinosaur.

00:45:55.860 --> 00:45:58.061
If you're an accountant, there's new tax laws.

00:45:58.271 --> 00:46:00.931
If you're a sales person, you're always trying to get better at selling.

00:46:01.181 --> 00:46:02.940
Keep working on those long sides.

00:46:02.951 --> 00:46:04.550
You kind of have to for your career.

00:46:05.130 --> 00:46:09.780
But if all you do is work on the long side, you get this long, skinny rectangle.

00:46:10.260 --> 00:46:11.380
And what's the overall area?

00:46:11.380 --> 00:46:12.501
It's not that big.

00:46:12.860 --> 00:46:25.740
When you put a little work into that short side, all of a sudden for the per Unit effort, the two extra units on that short side, increase your total area, your total capability, much more than the two units on the long side.

00:46:26.900 --> 00:46:29.251
And this comes down to working on our other skills.

00:46:29.780 --> 00:46:35.021
We've probably all met someone who is brilliant within his or her domain.

00:46:35.606 --> 00:46:40.255
But, doesn't communicate well, or doesn't lead well, or has some other limitation.

00:46:40.445 --> 00:46:45.186
We all know, wow, this guy or girl is really an expert, but it's just hard to follow.

00:46:45.695 --> 00:46:49.686
if that person works on his or her short side, just gets a little better.

00:46:49.686 --> 00:46:51.456
Not world class, gets a little better.

00:46:51.885 --> 00:46:54.996
They're so much more effective with that long side skill.

00:46:55.295 --> 00:46:58.106
So, all of us need to work on our short sides.

00:46:59.050 --> 00:47:17.641
Wow, that's quite a contrarian take, you know, but it makes a whole lot of sense and I appreciate you saying that because it's something I've always believed, never been able to, put it so succinctly as that example, but, you know, the book, uh, what, what comes to mind is the book Strength Finders, which Got a lot of managers to start thinking, Hey, let's identify people's strengths and work off of their strengths.

00:47:17.641 --> 00:47:22.771
And some, rather than helping them work on areas for improvement, right.

00:47:22.811 --> 00:47:27.920
Opportunities for improvement, which possibly could get us to bigger breakthroughs, right.

00:47:28.300 --> 00:47:28.960
That's what you're saying.

00:47:29.121 --> 00:47:33.121
And I'm not saying everyone has to be a perfect square.

00:47:33.320 --> 00:47:35.311
Don't have to be equally good in everything.

00:47:35.501 --> 00:47:35.771
Right.

00:47:35.771 --> 00:47:36.940
We want to have.

00:47:37.286 --> 00:47:45.246
a few long sides that are our friends, but we want to make sure the short sides are at a certain sufficient competency.

00:47:45.536 --> 00:47:52.856
And for many people, they're below that minimum competency and that's where we want to get them up because that's where we'll start to see some biggest returns.

00:47:53.175 --> 00:47:53.545
Yeah.

00:47:53.706 --> 00:47:54.405
Oh, that's brilliant.

00:47:54.675 --> 00:47:55.025
Thank you.

00:47:55.786 --> 00:48:00.856
I'll let you pick from this last one, either a limiting belief, Or a big opportunity.

00:48:01.856 --> 00:48:08.775
We talked about limiting beliefs earlier that some people are naturally charismatic or leaders or whatever.

00:48:09.936 --> 00:48:11.405
That doesn't mean you can't learn.

00:48:11.485 --> 00:48:12.896
So all of these are learnable skills.

00:48:12.896 --> 00:48:13.755
We covered that before.

00:48:13.755 --> 00:48:15.076
So let's do so.

00:48:15.076 --> 00:48:15.936
Big opportunity.

00:48:15.936 --> 00:48:18.056
You're asking, what do I see as a big opportunity?

00:48:19.056 --> 00:48:21.646
Well, I think we talked about some of this as well.

00:48:21.965 --> 00:48:23.425
I think there's big opportunities.

00:48:23.556 --> 00:48:27.786
How we consume content is really going to change.

00:48:29.846 --> 00:48:37.726
Just in what we talked about with brain bump that we get more of this pull media, but also needs to change that there's going to be so much more content.

00:48:38.295 --> 00:48:45.626
I talked about the risks of bad content, even non malicious content, whether it's mediocre content.

00:48:46.030 --> 00:48:47.190
Or even good content.

00:48:47.190 --> 00:49:01.021
We're just going to overwhelm the amount of content out there and ways where we can better filter and get what is relevant to us, whether it's using that brain bump type of pull approach or other tools.

00:49:01.221 --> 00:49:03.311
I think this is going to be a big change.

00:49:03.670 --> 00:49:14.391
The other big change, and we mentioned this as well, education needs to change to emphasize these skills because we haven't been doing enough of a good job of that so far.

00:49:14.951 --> 00:49:15.300
Yeah.

00:49:15.990 --> 00:49:29.001
this is something we think about a lot In household, my, my oldest daughter in high school, she, joined an online, after COVID, everybody had to go online for COVID, then the world opened back up.

00:49:29.001 --> 00:49:34.621
She went back to school, was completely overwhelmed and didn't enjoy the experience, went back online and graduated a year early.

00:49:35.451 --> 00:49:40.260
And now my youngest daughter, she's going into 10th grade and she's looking at the same.

00:49:40.471 --> 00:49:46.650
And what I'm finding is, many other families with teenage kids are starting to do that.

00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:58.661
have their kids go online and just finish early because we're all kind of seeing the current educational model, the high school model, just not be good for our kids anymore.

00:49:59.291 --> 00:50:10.471
A school was designed for a 19th century, 20th century economy, where we just go off and work in the factories and all you needed was just some basic mechanical skills, right?

00:50:10.490 --> 00:50:14.090
In fact, the education system is not just changing content.

00:50:14.701 --> 00:50:22.311
We need to change the nature of education because it's no longer I graduate high school or trade school or college.

00:50:22.740 --> 00:50:25.920
At 22 to, okay, well, now I'm set.

00:50:25.931 --> 00:50:26.911
Now I'm a marketer.

00:50:26.920 --> 00:50:28.121
Now I'm a salesperson.

00:50:28.521 --> 00:50:30.701
We know people are going to change industries.

00:50:30.911 --> 00:50:33.070
We know there's a massive amount to learn.

00:50:33.340 --> 00:50:40.231
And so we need to move from this model of we've trained you with everything you need to know, and now you go use it for 40 years.

00:50:40.550 --> 00:50:47.251
Rather, I think we need to move to more of a continual educational model that might be a certain amount of.

00:50:47.530 --> 00:51:16.090
Continuing education credits, and we see models like this in medicine in accounting where they have to continually keep up, but then also even periods of more intensive training where people might say, and this might be normal in our jobs in society, people will go back for three or six months or even a year of more intensive training every 10 or 15 years or so to really kind of build some foundational skills for the next phase of their career.

00:51:16.661 --> 00:51:16.940
Yeah.

00:51:18.650 --> 00:51:21.451
Well, Mark, this has been a great conversation.

00:51:21.641 --> 00:51:29.150
I love, for you to share more about, where people can find you online, maybe, your app, your book, yourself, so they can work with you.

00:51:29.916 --> 00:51:31.675
I'll give you a couple different websites.

00:51:32.646 --> 00:51:36.965
If you're interested in the book, you can go to thecareertoolkitbook.

00:51:36.976 --> 00:51:39.036
com and you can see more about the book.

00:51:39.235 --> 00:51:40.726
I put out articles every week.

00:51:41.065 --> 00:51:45.505
On the resources page, there are the questions that you can ask as a candidate.

00:51:45.706 --> 00:51:48.326
There are questions for you to ask as an interviewer.

00:51:48.766 --> 00:51:50.036
All that, it's completely free.

00:51:50.036 --> 00:51:52.815
I don't even ask for your email because I'm not trying to sell you anything.

00:51:53.326 --> 00:51:55.056
So all the information is on the website.

00:51:55.056 --> 00:51:57.806
You can also click through to see where to sign, where to find the book.

00:51:58.356 --> 00:52:00.516
And if you want, you can follow me on social media.

00:52:00.851 --> 00:52:18.070
You can reach out to me on that website if you're interested in topics related to the book or in my day job work as a fractional CTO, a fractional chief technology officer, I also do fractional chief product officer work, so you can reach me there or go to LinkedIn and reach me there as well.

00:52:18.800 --> 00:52:22.255
My other website for the free Brain Bump app.

00:52:22.606 --> 00:52:28.576
Now, that app you can find, Brain Bump, in both the Apple and Android stores, but you can go to brainbumpapp.

00:52:29.996 --> 00:52:36.050
com and at that website there's a 90 second video that shows what the app does so you'll understand it.

00:52:36.541 --> 00:52:44.170
Full faq on the website and there are links to take you to the stores So those two websites the career toolkit book.

00:52:44.471 --> 00:52:47.291
com And brain bump app.

00:52:47.650 --> 00:52:49.170
com Excellent.

00:52:49.820 --> 00:52:51.141
Well, thank you very much mark.

00:52:51.141 --> 00:52:54.746
This has been a really great conversation Very insightful.

00:52:54.795 --> 00:52:57.445
I think a lot of people should go check out your book, check out the app.

00:52:57.965 --> 00:53:06.266
especially if you're looking, to develop a career plan and, and we didn't even talk enough about that really, but I understand you cover quite a bit of that in your book.

00:53:06.335 --> 00:53:10.856
That's chapter one, how to create and execute your career plan, whatever stage you're at.

00:53:11.246 --> 00:53:14.786
If there's another rung you want to get to, don't just sit there and cross your fingers.

00:53:15.215 --> 00:53:18.106
Here is how you create a plan to ensure that you get there.

00:53:18.686 --> 00:53:19.596
Well, thank you, Mark.

00:53:20.936 --> 00:53:23.376
Hopefully you'll listen as we'll go in and check that out.

00:53:24.505 --> 00:53:25.416
Thanks for having me on the show.

00:53:31.590 --> 00:53:33.349
We hope you've enjoyed The Wayfinder Show.

00:53:33.500 --> 00:53:37.719
If you got value from this episode, please take a few seconds to leave us a 5 star rating and review.

00:53:38.010 --> 00:53:42.260
This will allow us to help more people find their way to live more authentic and exciting lives.

00:53:42.920 --> 00:53:44.219
We'll catch you on the next episode.