Men's Health and Emotional Well-being with Owen Marcus
Men's Health and Emotional Well-being with Owen Marcus
Send us a text Owen shares insights from his 30 years of experience, detailing his journey from somatic psychotherapy and Rolfing to co-fou…
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Jan. 24, 2025

Men's Health and Emotional Well-being with Owen Marcus

Men's Health and Emotional Well-being with Owen Marcus
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The Wayfinder Show
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Owen shares insights from his 30 years of experience, detailing his journey from somatic psychotherapy and Rolfing to co-founding MELD. He explains how MELD integrates somatic mindfulness and polyvagal theory to help men build emotional resilience and form authentic connections. Owen discusses the importance of vulnerability, emotional regulation, and peer support in men's groups, and how these elements contribute to better personal and professional lives. He also touches on the impact of modern culture on men's emotional well-being and provides practical tips for self-awareness and mindfulness. Owen's work has been featured in prominent media outlets, including a TEDx talk, and endorsed by figures like Esther Perel.

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Transcript
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fascia, which is this connective tissue that holds everything together.

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It's called the organ of stress.

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And when we have any kind of stress, physical or emotional, we store it there.

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And so when we can release the fascia, we release stress.

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And so I got a lot of interesting stories of guys and women I've worked on that, you know, had chronic conditions and their stress and their emotions would release when their body would release.

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Welcome to The Wayfinder Show with Luis Hernandez, where guests discuss the why and how of making changes that lead them down a more authentic path or allow them to level up in some area of their life.

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Our goal is to dig deep and provide not only knowledge, but actionable advice to help you get from where you are to where you want to be.

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Come join us and find the way to your dream life.' Welcome back to The Wayfinder Show.

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Today, I have a great guest.

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His name is Owen Marcus, and Owen is a transformative coach and author renowned for his groundbreaking work in emotion, in men's emotional health.

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As a co founder of MELD, Owen integrates somatic mindfulness and polyvagal theory to help men develop emotional resilience, redefine masculinity.

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And foster authentic connections.

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With over 30 years of experience, he has been featured in prominent media outlets such as Men's Health and New York Times, and I've also seen him on TED.

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And he's been endorsed by luminaries such as Esther Perel.

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Through MELD's programs, Owen equips men with scientifically backed tools to thrive in both personal and professional spheres.

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Owen, welcome to The Wayfinder Show.

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Thank you.

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It's a pleasure and honor to be here.

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Yeah, likewise.

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It's an honor to have you here.

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So, you know I guess before we get into it I know in your circles, you're very well known, but some of our listeners may not know you very well.

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How did you, and I've also heard the story, so I kind of wanted you to share it with our listeners kind of how you got into this mess.

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Yeah, I got into this mess sort of kicking and screaming.

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Sort of the backstory, I got into somatic psychotherapy, body work.

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healing back in the late 70s, and we were just talking about, you know, me living in Boulder, and I was sort of in the right place at the right time and got exposed to all the people that were developing and researching all the new somatic therapies.

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I was really intrigued because I was really tense and uptight, and a lot of that work really changed me and really improved a lot of the issues that I didn't realize I had until graduate school, which was like dyslexia and Asperger's syndrome.

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So, a lot of that got better, but my relationship still won't aren't really working, at least my relationships with women.

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And about 30 years ago, I decided that I should go into what I was resisting, which was men's work, or specifically men's groups, did a men's training.

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And when I had my at a small integrated medical clinic in Scottsdale, when I had that, before I moved out of Phoenix or Arizona, I started my first men's group.

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And it was a mediocre group, but There was something in that group that intrigued me, and I just continued to pursue that.

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And 20 years ago, I sort of redesigned the model for men's group and consequently for men's work.

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And I just wanted to create a group of like a dozen guys that I really wanted to be with, that I could be authentic with, I felt safe with, and we were just real.

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And so I used a lot of the somatic or the emotional physiology I'd learned and it was using clinically and applied it to designing this group, and it just took off.

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And this is currently a group that's in existence even though I don't live in Sandpoint, Idaho any longer.

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We've had over 500 guys in the group.

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Currently we have over 60 guys in like five groups.

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I'm in one of the groups, which is a group of expats.

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It's a Zoom group.

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And that group ended up Creating a documentary film that was done on us.

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You know, that TEDx talk, a book three companies, Mel being the last company, and a whole new way of working with men and really.

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And I work with women sometimes, but primarily men.

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How, you know, how we can use our physiology, which we usually think of being a stress physiology that takes us out of, you know, interactions or vulnerability or just even being healthy, and how we can use that physiology and turn it around for our betterment and for better connections with others.

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Interesting.

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I, I was curious, I guess you alluded to it, but I, I read somewhere that you were into Rolfing before, which I'm a little familiar with, and that's if I understand much more of like a fascia, like a fascia release type right?

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Like, almost like a Yeah, it was developed by Dr.

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Rolf I ended up in Boulder by accident because I couldn't find a job, the place to live in a ski area.

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Someone suggested Boulder, Colorado, ended up there, ended up with a living, a group of guys, this fellow who'd been an attorney in Florida.

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for eight years.

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I don't want to be an attorney anymore after he got Rolf.

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Moved out to Boulder, lived with us to learn to be a Rolfer.

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And Breck argued his case so well after a couple weeks.

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I said, all right, all right, all right.

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I will go try it if you just promise to shut up.

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He said, okay, I'll just shut up.

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You just try it.

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Well, I tried one session and I was sold, did the 10 series and spent four years in Boulder learning Rolfing, a lot of other somatic or psychosomatic therapy.

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So Rolfing is a deep tissue kind of not Massage, but yes, soft tissue manipulation where we're releasing a chronic stress, not the recent, but the chronic stress in our body that we get from injuries and primarily stress that tightens us, shortens us, distorts us, and makes us old before our time.

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And so one of the things that Dr.

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Rolf realized was that if we, loosen or release this soft tissue appropriately, literally the structure will realign itself to be in better gravity.

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So I learned it, moved down to Phoenix, ended up with a practice that became a clinic and I ended up working with a lot of professional and Olympic athletes, did research on them and did many other things where I get people that tried everything else and they weren't getting well.

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And if.

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Their chronic condition had its in the soft tissue.

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And a lot of things do our success rate was very close to 100%.

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And if I couldn't help you, I'd send you to someone else, but we don't realize how much we put our stress and our physical body.

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So, you know, that not that you're having a shoulder.

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Yeah, it might be somewhat from physical, but most of it's from the chronic stress buildup or, you know, maybe from Particular trauma you had, so fascia, which is this connective tissue that holds everything together, it's called the organ of stress.

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And when we have any kind of stress, physical or emotional, we store it there.

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And so when we can release the fascia, we release stress.

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And so I got a lot of interesting stories of guys and women I've worked on that, you know, had chronic conditions and their stress and their emotions would release when their body would release.

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Yeah.

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I think it's interesting with a little bit of familiarity I have with Ralf, because it seems when I was preparing for this that you're Your type of work is not so physical, but is still an emotional release, right.

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That may still, you know, manifest as itself, as, as chronic stress in the fascia or what have you, but you have a, a whole different re way of releasing it.

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Is it, is it, is there a difference in like, in the effectiveness?

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Like, I, I, I don't see how you know, just, just Rolfing will release some of that emotional stress.

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I guess that could lead to well, yeah, I didn't either until it happened to me Sure, I went through the 10 sessions once a week for 10 weeks nine months later I was literally just short of an inch taller and 20 pounds lighter and I was never fat I was so tense as a kid.

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They wouldn't let me in a pool because I'd sink I did huge thick legs that were just not muscle so much as gristle And I didn't walk, I waddled.

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So, you know, I thought it was muscular, but I realized it was just tension.

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And when I went through the roll thing, and then nine months later, my body had just let go.

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So for me, it was more subtle.

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I got dozens of examples of people on my table that would, that were holding stress.

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And one guy I'm thinking about now is, this is probably 30 years ago.

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He was An officer in the special forces, he took his platoon behind enemy lines to ambush a village.

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They get ambushed, and out of all of that, he was traumatized.

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And I was working on his adductors, were inside of his legs one session, and he started having this spontaneous emotional and physical release.

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He started shaking, he started moaning and crying, and this is a, you know, a big burly, you know, ex special force guy that had a chronic hip problem that no one could fix.

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And so that went on for a good 20 minutes, and I just let it go on, his body was releasing.

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He came back the next week and said, I haven't felt this good in decades.

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My hip's working fine.

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And before it was like his leg was in backwards.

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And, you know, he came in, his walk was perfect.

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And he told me, What happened was he, in that previous week, he relived the experience of his trauma, and his trauma was he was getting ambushed, and he had to break the neck of a 12 year old boy to protect his platoon.

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And because he was on a mission that had to be fulfilled, he didn't have any time to process it.

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And by the time, he might have had any time, it was too late.

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delay, it was already in his body.

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I mean, that's a dramatic illustration of what happens for, for 99 percent of us, it's much more subtle.

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So within your new methodology.

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You're taking, you're, you're not actually taking it on physically.

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You're, you're, you're dealing with the emotions head on, right?

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Yeah, and so, you know, the raw thing is, it's physical and sometimes people have emotional or physiological or stress releases or traumatic releases.

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Sure.

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But what happens is, one way to look at this is that We have an emotional experience like this gentleman, you know it was a very emotional experience for him to break a neck of a boy.

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No one, no human being would want to do that, but he didn't have a choice.

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He had to do that.

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And that emotion, because you couldn't process it in that moment.

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That, that energy went into his body, as we said earlier, it went into his fascia, and it just stayed there, and when I worked on that fascia, because he trusted me enough, he was able to release it, and so what happens is, we have an experience that's too big for the container, like he had an experience that was too big for that situation, he didn't have the time and the space or anyone else that sort of supported him in that, so that energy or that trauma went into his body, and so when we work with men, And again, this is more of an extreme example, but it happens usually much more subtly.

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I'm working with you.

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I started asking you some questions, you know, I'm not even touching you.

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I can do it virtually.

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And you start to feel your body.

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Maybe your body starts to shake or tremble, or you start to have a physiological and maybe an emotional experience.

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And I just coach.

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through that.

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So your body's releasing without me touching you.

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You might not know, you might never know what the precipitating event or events were, but your body, your unconscious, and your emotion sort of knows, and it's getting to complete the incomplete.

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Because we created or co created an environment that it was safe enough for you to have it.

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And I, through my questions, it was enough of a catalyst where you start, started to connect with these buried parts of you or your disconnections.

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And you started to reconnect and you allowed yourself to start to release and Same thing as the, you know, ex special force guy on my table.

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In both cases, you both are having a physiological release that has an emotional antecedent.

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Hmm, okay.

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One, one, a couple of just, definition questions.

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One is, what is Polyvagal?

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Polyvagal sounds very complicated, and maybe it is a little, but once you get into it, you realize it's pretty simple.

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Polyvagal theory was developed by a really great guy named Stephen Porges.

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He's probably now the premier scientist for stress and trauma in the world.

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He was originally, at one point for first research director for the Rolfenstube.

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He only did that for a year, but you know, he's written half a dozen books.

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The first one was way above my pay scale, but the rest of them are explaining how this vagus nerve, which is the 10th cranial nerve which is the longest nerve in our body.

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It's essentially starts at the brain skin, goes down our spine.

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And what he realizes it has a couple parts to it.

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And he realized it had a ventral or front part.

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And that front part Is how we It's to use his word, co regulate, how we connect to other people.

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And so, just to sort of back up a little, there's like three ways to release stress and trauma that I've found.

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And I call it the S.

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A.

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K.

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S A K.

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The first is the shaking, you know, what we've talked about, like particularly with that ex special forces guy.

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And which is what, it's how we're hardwired to release.

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in the moment.

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But when we can't do that, it gets stored in our body.

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So we've got a couple other ways to do it.

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The next way is to take action, but mindfully to feel the fear or the emotion as you're acting, because what happened with this.

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special ops guy and everyone else is that we froze.

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So when we can't fight, we can't flee, we freeze.

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We're hardwired to do that.

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And so when we can act and when we can take action and feel, we rewire our nervous system.

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And the third one, the C is connection.

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And this is what Stephen Porges realized is that All mammals, and certainly humans, have this ability to connect with another person.

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So, Louise, as I look at you, you know, I'm seeing you, I'm hearing your voice, I'm unconsciously picking up that you're safe.

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You're not frowning, you're not, you know, you're not looking tense, your voice isn't harsh.

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So, unconsciously, Instinctually, I'm feeling that you're safe, and hopefully you're feeling that from me, and we develop rapport.

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So when we can co regulate or connect to someone that is safe, we down regulate our stress or trauma response.

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Now, like with this special ops guy and so many of us when we've had trauma or stress, we didn't have anyone to do that with.

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Now, as kids, that's what we needed, but we didn't have enough of that.

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And we get into the whole attachment theory is when we don't have secure attachment or enough connection, our nervous system doesn't learn how to self regulate.

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So self regulation, our ability to down regulate or relax, first comes from or is meant to come from getting trained by someone else, like our parents, that we're co regulating with.

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And now all that is through this vagus nerve.

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So hopefully that was a simple explanation.

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Ah, yeah, there's a lot there to unpack, right?

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I, I want to particularly touch upon the point of connection.

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Because this is something I think about a lot now.

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And and I know in your work you do quite a bit with connecting men, right?

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Forming men's groups and, and what have you.

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There's a couple of things I do every year where I get together.

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You know with a bunch of friends and happens to be that we're all men and we get and by the end of that weekend There's like this incredible bond that comes out right and it just it just kind of happens organically, right?

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We go to a finance conference And we rent a big house and we just hang out like when we were kids, you know that as like teenagers Or something and but every time you come out and it is just a great feeling, you know, and and I've had that experience at many other events, conferences, retreats, what have you, that you go to, and it's had me thinking a lot about connection because I think we're in this world now where we are so disconnected, we don't, we don't, put ourselves in a room with other people, much less, you know, other men, you know, we don't express ourselves and all that, but there's, there's, there is something to when that happens that just makes you feel good.

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Can you, so you found, and do you you, you know, is that, is that where you coordinate?

00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:52.390
Yeah, I mean, you just pretty much nailed a key part of what we do.

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Yeah, but this model I created, and it's not completely my model.

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I drew from a lot of people that are experts.

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I call it the, you know, the bio communal model.

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It's the bio or the physiological part is what we've been talking about.

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But you nailed the other part.

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part, which is a communal part.

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So we're hardwired to survive and that's the physiology and we're hardwired for connection and you call that attachment theory, which is, you know, something that was first developed, you know, before the second world war and, you know, it's been refined and it's turned into different kinds of therapies, but we're, we need connection.

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And then when we don't have connection or they would call secure attachment, it's stressful and for a baby traumatic or a child.

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And so, yeah.

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So, for most guys, and you alluded to this, you know, after we left school or maybe the military and we, you know, went out into the world and worked and maybe got married, most of us lost those kinds of connections, and it's great that you, you know, once a year have that for a weekend or whatever, but most men, we don't have it even for a weekend once a year, but we need that.

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And it's authentic connection, but as most guys will tell me, and probably you, that they, you know, they know guys, and maybe they play sports with them, or they work with them, or they, you know, go to a bar with them, and they hang out with them, or watch a game with them, but they're not really connecting with them.

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Right.

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And then we got social media, which is what I call sort of junk food connection.

00:19:26.095 --> 00:19:30.055
I mean, it's like food, you know, junk food is food, but it's really not nourishing.

00:19:30.454 --> 00:19:33.494
And social media has a lot of offsides.

00:19:33.765 --> 00:19:36.875
But it doesn't create this more authentic connection and we need that.

00:19:37.765 --> 00:19:39.744
And, and as you said, when we get it.

00:19:40.400 --> 00:20:01.755
We down regulate, we relax, we connect, we become ourselves, you know, our, you know, our group or whoever we're with, they accept us for who we are, and we accept them, and this is natural bonding that occurs, and guys come to our retreats in part because either Consciously or unconsciously, they know that they need it, and they don't know how to get it or where to get it.

00:20:02.394 --> 00:20:06.035
And so they, you know, they get a huge dose of it at our retreats.

00:20:06.724 --> 00:20:10.894
And they learn a lot of other things, or learn things, on top of getting that connection.

00:20:11.065 --> 00:20:13.954
And then often what they do is, I want more of this.

00:20:14.085 --> 00:20:24.525
So they go off and form a regular men's group, virtually or live, which is what I've been doing for 30 years, where like on a weekly basis, these guys start to connect.

00:20:25.025 --> 00:20:41.795
And that connection becomes their bond, and each of them synchronously and collectively grow where maybe they went into this group with certain issues or goals that within usually six months they've turned around, but we've got guys that have been in this group I formed 20 years ago that are still in it.

00:20:43.339 --> 00:20:54.279
They passed any need that they ever had to join, but they get so much nourishment because of this connection that we all need that they come up or they show up every week.

00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:55.430
Wow.

00:20:56.109 --> 00:20:58.660
What is like, what is, how is that facilitated?

00:21:00.670 --> 00:21:03.670
It sort of depends on the venue.

00:21:03.740 --> 00:21:06.950
We go, the groups end up being peer to peer group.

00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:11.799
So there's no one leader, you know, we, I say, we set up every guy to lead the group.

00:21:11.930 --> 00:21:13.119
So every guy takes ownership.

00:21:13.130 --> 00:21:17.829
One guy might lead in one meeting for, for a week of that meeting.

00:21:17.829 --> 00:21:21.240
But generally it's a peer to peer group and that's sort of the foundation.

00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:23.450
And, but the trainings.

00:21:23.805 --> 00:22:06.380
Or, you know, more directed because we're leading the training and we'll lead some group or group experiences because we you know when we know what we're doing and we want to Give that guy or the group of guys The most they can get in one weekend or where we're a lot ongoing training So we lead but all our trainings and all our experiences are really experience based and they all in some way have Either dire or triad experiences or group experiences because what we found is, you know No matter how well I might know something and I can teach it I can't teach it as well as you can teach yourself by having these experiences.

00:22:06.380 --> 00:22:26.759
So we, we give you a little conceptual framework, we do a little instruction, we might do a little demo, and like in this prime retreat that we're doing in February in Joshua Tree, you know, we, we take you through this whole arc of change that I developed, which is really seeing how we all change when we really change, and we teach it step by step.

00:22:27.180 --> 00:22:47.359
And so we demonstrate it, you're there, We, you know, we divide you up, and we rotate how we divide it up, and we're, there were two other guys, and you work on each other, one observes, one receives, and one works, and you just rotate through, step by step of this whole method, and pretty quickly, you start to learn things that you never learned.

00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:56.970
And it's fun, and you're amazed at how well you can do this, because my contention is, instinctually, we know how to do this.

00:22:57.779 --> 00:23:07.650
It's just that we We've unlearned it or we're told not to do it or whatever, but we're hard wired for connection and survival and to connect to our body and connect to others.

00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:17.640
So with the right environment, an emotionally safe environment, and some really good instruction and a context to do it in or practicing in, you'll learn it pretty quickly.

00:23:19.869 --> 00:23:21.809
What is there anything to doing?

00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:32.920
Like physical activities together and I'm thinking specifically like, you know, I, I used to do a lot of mountain climbing, hiking, you know, the things you do in Boulder, right?

00:23:33.490 --> 00:23:34.589
And with other guys.

00:23:34.589 --> 00:23:36.200
And by the end of that, you just.

00:23:36.650 --> 00:23:39.259
There's just something, like, it feels great.

00:23:39.309 --> 00:23:51.869
You just climbed a mountain together and there's a real bond there, you know And it was no intention behind, like, it wasn't facilitated like you, you do, it just happens, yeah.

00:23:52.670 --> 00:24:10.559
Yeah, the research shows that, but I think More than that, our experience shows that when we have a stressful event and stressful events aren't necessarily bad, like, you know, going and climbing one of the 14, 000 foot peaks in Colorado is a workout and, you know, it may be a little dangerous.

00:24:10.569 --> 00:24:12.299
So you need your, you know, your guys there.

00:24:12.625 --> 00:24:13.404
to support you.

00:24:13.914 --> 00:24:16.075
And so that just naturally bonds you.

00:24:16.404 --> 00:24:35.785
And we've certainly seen that with these vets coming back from their tours of duty, where they get, you know, when they're out on a deployment, you know, they want to come home, they come home and, you know, they have PTSD, they're bored, they're stressed, and they miss the guys, and they feel like, because they're not there, you know, their men are not protected.

00:24:35.974 --> 00:24:37.005
So they want to go back.

00:24:38.015 --> 00:24:39.855
And a lot of reasons why they want to go back.

00:24:40.049 --> 00:24:50.059
It's because of that bond that is in some ways fostered in, you know, from the stress and then in the small quarters and a common enemy and all that.

00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:51.839
So we need that.

00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:53.630
We don't necessarily have to go to war to get it.

00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:55.369
Yeah.

00:24:55.369 --> 00:25:01.480
I mean, I've heard this, I've heard this for people in prison too, that when they come out, they feel the same way.

00:25:02.130 --> 00:25:06.049
And, you know, there was a bond formed there they miss.

00:25:07.400 --> 00:25:07.710
Right.

00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:13.375
And, and, you know, as you mentioned, As kids, we had this.

00:25:13.884 --> 00:25:20.154
Maybe it wasn't stressful, but we were playing together and we were all sort of going in the same direction, you know, through school together.

00:25:20.154 --> 00:25:23.845
And, and we found, formed these groups or cliques or whatever.

00:25:23.845 --> 00:25:29.154
And, and, and we all started off pretty much at the same place at the same level.

00:25:29.674 --> 00:25:33.964
But in the other world, it's, It's not that convenient.

00:25:33.964 --> 00:25:35.085
It's not set up that way.

00:25:35.085 --> 00:25:46.684
So one of the things I'll say to guys, it's somewhat arbitrary in a group or a training, we set the context, but guys, we'd like to know what the rules and engagement are.

00:25:48.565 --> 00:25:50.744
It's like playing a game and say soccer.

00:25:50.755 --> 00:25:52.224
You know, these are the rules.

00:25:52.255 --> 00:25:54.325
This is the parameters of the field.

00:25:54.335 --> 00:25:55.204
This is the ball.

00:25:55.214 --> 00:25:56.494
This is what you do with the ball.

00:25:56.904 --> 00:25:58.595
And we, you know, we know what the rules are.

00:25:58.615 --> 00:25:59.444
And we like that.

00:25:59.454 --> 00:26:04.515
We, we play by those rules because by playing by these rules, we get something out of it.

00:26:04.755 --> 00:26:10.855
And so we sort of have those rules when we work with guys, like first one's confidentiality and the guys go, yeah.

00:26:10.894 --> 00:26:23.230
And what I find with guys is, You know, once we know what the rules are and we know it's safe, guys just lean in way more than they ever thought they would.

00:26:24.579 --> 00:26:32.930
Yeah, what about I'm wondering, in today's society, you know, lately there's been a lot of talk about men and how unhappy we are.

00:26:33.289 --> 00:26:37.809
There's a higher level of addiction, higher level of, of suicide.

00:26:38.140 --> 00:26:41.130
I mean, I think it's becoming, it's a growing epidemic, really.

00:26:41.170 --> 00:26:51.890
And do you, do you find Do you, do you, in your belief, is that, is that a lot of that have to do with connection or, like, what are your theories behind it?

00:26:51.900 --> 00:26:59.799
Yeah, I think it, in my experience, it does, and, and, and as you probably read, there's a whole isolation epidemic happening, particularly for men.

00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:08.569
From young men to older men, and this gets worse as we get older, you know, our Surgeon General has, you know, done a big study on it, and so people are talking about it.

00:27:08.839 --> 00:27:12.500
And I think it's a function of a few things.

00:27:13.474 --> 00:27:37.954
You know, stress and trauma being one, the culture being another and the culture specifically for men because And, and the general MO or zeitgeist of being a guy, we're told to tough it up, not be vulnerable, not ask for help, you know, to be more self reliant and all these things, you know, there's a place for it, but we've overdone it.

00:27:37.984 --> 00:27:47.275
And so one of the things that we hear when guys come to us, be it virtual, like a, you know, a webinar we might do to a big, long training.

00:27:47.740 --> 00:27:57.589
Is that one, I thought I was the only one because we're so isolated and then we think we're the only one screwed up and everyone else has it together and social media doesn't help that any.

00:27:58.430 --> 00:28:02.559
And another one is, oh, I thought I wasn't good enough.

00:28:03.950 --> 00:28:06.740
And we get this collected and then research supports this too.

00:28:06.740 --> 00:28:08.740
In fact, we even did our own study a few years ago.

00:28:09.220 --> 00:28:11.890
And the biggest thing that we found was men think they're not good enough.

00:28:14.289 --> 00:28:20.900
And part of that is everything I named, but also we start to compare ourselves because we're in a very competitive culture.

00:28:21.400 --> 00:28:36.289
But when a guy comes to, say, one of our trainings or retreats in particular, and he starts to hear other guys just be authentic and vulnerable, and that guy or these other men don't get shamed as they would out there, but honored for their courage, they're going, Oh, wow.

00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:42.109
I thought I was the only one that felt this way and went through this or had disbelief or whatever.

00:28:42.130 --> 00:28:44.900
And pretty quickly, guys that were going like, you know.

00:28:46.269 --> 00:28:49.240
You know, I'm going to tough this out, you know, and blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:28:49.490 --> 00:29:03.069
You know, they're opening up and they're connecting the guys because they realize that, you know, we're all struggling with very similar things, and we're not going to get on the other side of this by ourselves.

00:29:03.529 --> 00:29:09.440
And so, what's happening is more and more guys are going to therapy, which is great.

00:29:09.904 --> 00:29:14.305
Yeah, but a lot of them going a lot of therapists are saying my partner's a therapist.

00:29:14.545 --> 00:29:21.119
You know, look you don't need therapy Just go do one of Owen's trainings or groups or whatever.

00:29:21.369 --> 00:29:25.460
You just need to be with other guys like you and connect on a real level.

00:29:27.250 --> 00:29:27.589
Yeah.

00:29:28.849 --> 00:29:29.069
Yeah.

00:29:29.069 --> 00:29:32.000
I know there is, there's definitely something there for sure.

00:29:32.650 --> 00:29:39.569
Do you, do you, so are you finding that this, you know, connecting with men through men's groups is helping?

00:29:39.904 --> 00:29:41.974
with our relationships at home, with our wives?

00:29:45.105 --> 00:29:46.365
Yes, a lot.

00:29:46.884 --> 00:29:54.765
The biggest reason that we get men to do anything, from a group to, you know well, yeah, even our nine month certification training, but particularly everything else.

00:29:54.765 --> 00:30:01.055
That's usually guys that have done other things, but the biggest motivator for guys to get into this work is usually the relationship.

00:30:01.525 --> 00:30:01.835
Yeah.

00:30:02.414 --> 00:30:13.359
You know, either it's not what they want it to be, or their partners are saying to them, you know, you need to do something, or if you don't do something, I'm gone.

00:30:13.880 --> 00:30:16.069
Or, you know, do therapy or do this or whatever.

00:30:16.460 --> 00:30:21.180
You know, so there's a continuum of encouragement that they're getting from their relationships.

00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:25.869
Or, you know, they've had a couple bad relationships or unsuccessful relationships.

00:30:26.250 --> 00:30:29.230
And like with me, they realize that they are the consistent variable.

00:30:29.460 --> 00:30:30.779
So maybe they should change.

00:30:30.789 --> 00:30:33.789
And, you know, with them changing, maybe their relationships will change.

00:30:34.140 --> 00:30:37.240
So relationships are the biggest thing that brings guys in.

00:30:39.250 --> 00:30:45.619
What happens is, you know, in our trainings or groups, guys learn how to relate.

00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:48.900
And so, my partner is a couples therapist.

00:30:48.900 --> 00:30:53.500
We do couples workshops, couples intensives, and couples retreats.

00:30:53.500 --> 00:30:57.170
Like, we're doing a big one down in Costa Rica for a week in February.

00:30:57.430 --> 00:31:05.809
And what, you know, what inevitably happens is these guys don't know first how to connect to themselves.

00:31:05.809 --> 00:31:07.809
Like, I did not know how to connect to myself.

00:31:08.529 --> 00:31:17.910
And the little story I talk about in the TEDx talk is I had a partner that kept on saying to me one night on my couch, Owen, I don't feel you.

00:31:17.940 --> 00:31:23.180
And I kept on, not arguing, but sort of debating, giving her reasons why she should feel me.

00:31:23.799 --> 00:31:30.099
And then suddenly, after a couple of minutes of hearing myself give her all these reasons, I realized there were those reasons.

00:31:31.335 --> 00:31:35.105
And yeah, of course she didn't feel me because I wasn't being emotional.

00:31:35.105 --> 00:31:46.265
I might have been using emotional words and explaining and justifying and whatever, but I was not being vulnerable and it wasn't, and she didn't want me crying on the floor.

00:31:46.275 --> 00:31:51.035
She just wanted to feel me, but she couldn't feel me if I couldn't feel myself.

00:31:51.934 --> 00:32:08.924
And so often where we start with guys and this gets into the somatic work is getting them to feel themselves because like me in the beginning and we get guys that come in and you might, Say, if you're one of them, you'll be in a group or whatever, and I go, yeah, what are you feeling emotionally?

00:32:08.924 --> 00:32:11.105
And, oh, I'm not feeling anything.

00:32:11.115 --> 00:32:11.734
I go, okay.

00:32:11.944 --> 00:32:21.414
So then we back it up and get you to feel your body, because every guy in the group sees that you're feeling something, but you don't see it or feel it, but your body's responding.

00:32:21.414 --> 00:32:31.694
So we point out all these little things your bodies are doing as we ask you these questions, and you start to feel your hand move, your leg twitch, and your eyes do this, and your breath does that.

00:32:32.200 --> 00:32:36.849
And, you know, after a few minutes of feeling your body and then we go, what do you feel emotionally?

00:32:37.539 --> 00:32:38.339
Boom, you just know.

00:32:39.589 --> 00:32:41.000
Is that just through meditation?

00:32:41.980 --> 00:32:42.299
Pardon?

00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:44.390
Is that just through like a meditation?

00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:46.079
Like a body scan or something?

00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:47.740
It can be, but it's just for questions.

00:32:48.569 --> 00:32:48.839
Okay.

00:32:48.839 --> 00:32:49.589
Just, just asking.

00:32:49.869 --> 00:32:52.660
You know, I train guys on how to read bodies.

00:32:52.670 --> 00:32:54.690
So, how to read the autonomics.

00:32:54.700 --> 00:33:02.589
The, the unconscious, idiomotor, or little movements that you do that reflect your experience.

00:33:02.599 --> 00:33:04.769
Your unconscious and emotional experience.

00:33:05.259 --> 00:33:06.980
It's like I said with Stephen Porges.

00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:09.990
He talks about all these little muscles of the face.

00:33:10.630 --> 00:33:12.720
And all they're there for is for expression.

00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:27.150
Like one example is, is if I'm telling you to smile, like smile right now, and that's sort of a fake smile, because that's more of a real smile.

00:33:27.349 --> 00:33:31.589
And the difference between a fake and real smile is what happens with your eyes.

00:33:32.950 --> 00:33:37.170
And so we know that we unconsciously know when someone's faking it.

00:33:37.650 --> 00:33:37.980
Yeah.

00:33:38.589 --> 00:33:42.930
And so we'll be reading your body and all these subtle cues.

00:33:43.150 --> 00:33:44.744
And we might pick it out.

00:33:45.494 --> 00:33:47.444
a few of those cues and make you aware of those cues.

00:33:47.775 --> 00:33:58.555
And you, as you become physically aware of your unconscious movements, you start to get closer and closer to what you're feeling emotionally.

00:34:00.605 --> 00:34:08.655
And at some point, inevitably, you're going to feel emotional about what you've been feeling about, but you didn't know you were.

00:34:09.855 --> 00:34:10.235
Okay.

00:34:11.155 --> 00:34:27.795
Give a, like, is, is there something You know, I'm gonna ask you to give away what you do I love to give it away good So, you know what what is something we can do every day to you know To, to feel our bodies.

00:34:28.655 --> 00:34:32.364
In general, I would say somatic mindfulness.

00:34:32.715 --> 00:34:40.835
Now, somatic mindfulness can be meditation and you can get these apps that will, you know, talk you through a somatic meditation.

00:34:41.335 --> 00:34:43.885
And what that is, is just being aware of your body.

00:34:44.255 --> 00:35:32.925
And, and I've done it thousands of times with people over, you know, Many decades and I used to have a whole program when I had the clinic that where we did that And I was amazed how effective it was So it's just being aware of what you're feeling in your body in this moment And so like right now it might be you know Feeling your feet in the floor and your butt in the chair Feeling your breath in your belly and it'll go slower than that and just feeling those things And so, it's like, we have these neural pathways, they're there, we're hardwired to feel them, but we haven't turned them on for ever, maybe never, but they're there, the circuits are there, yes, the behavior, the neural connection on a functional level has been sort of extinguished or unlearned, but you can reactivate them.

00:35:33.574 --> 00:35:40.594
And we talk about neuroplasticity, you know you know, as you learn something, literally the neurons start to change.

00:35:40.594 --> 00:35:45.429
They start to, as they say, you know, what You use, starts to get wired together.

00:35:45.429 --> 00:35:54.349
So as you do things, you know, in a repeated way, those neurons start to get reinforced, just like a muscle gets reinforced or stronger as you start to use that muscle more.

00:35:54.809 --> 00:35:58.099
And so you start to connect to your body.

00:35:58.269 --> 00:36:04.940
And what I particularly work with people on is what I call the informal somatic mindfulness.

00:36:05.190 --> 00:36:09.360
So yes, doing the meditation every day is a great start, but really.

00:36:10.224 --> 00:36:12.655
It's just checking in with your body throughout the day.

00:36:12.855 --> 00:36:14.485
And I do this with my coaching clients.

00:36:14.494 --> 00:36:15.735
It makes a huge difference.

00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:22.855
And what happens is, I tell guys to work on it on the long tails of a curb.

00:36:23.284 --> 00:36:25.034
And so, a bell curb.

00:36:25.175 --> 00:36:27.644
And so the high point is when you're under a lot of stress.

00:36:27.875 --> 00:36:29.815
The long tails is when you don't have stress.

00:36:30.295 --> 00:36:32.815
So work on it as, you know, when you don't have stress.

00:36:33.605 --> 00:36:46.105
And then as the stress builds up, keep coming back to it to a point where, you know, you could be under a lot of stress and you'll remember, Oh, I'm going to connect to my body, my breath, or feel it.

00:36:46.405 --> 00:36:54.355
And what might happen in the immediate instant is you might feel more intense emotion or physical pain.

00:36:55.594 --> 00:36:57.414
So this is, I'm giving it away here.

00:36:58.614 --> 00:37:00.014
That's sort of the secret.

00:37:00.195 --> 00:37:03.195
So you go from avoiding the discomfort to feeling it.

00:37:04.125 --> 00:37:06.224
The avoiding is the freeze response.

00:37:06.275 --> 00:37:07.724
It's a survival response.

00:37:07.985 --> 00:37:08.554
When we don't.

00:37:09.275 --> 00:37:14.255
Take action when we're not connected and it's, and it, and psychologists call it disassociation.

00:37:14.405 --> 00:37:30.565
We disconnect and there's a whole school of psychotherapy that deal with parts and, and IFS or internal family systems is that sort of syn nano parts work, but all that really is, is when we can't have an experience, we disassociate.

00:37:31.175 --> 00:37:35.195
And so by, you know, you might be driving down a road.

00:37:37.954 --> 00:37:43.425
When you feel something, your shoulders are up, and you feel that, you feel a little tension, and you drop your shoulders.

00:37:43.514 --> 00:37:43.925
Boom.

00:37:44.235 --> 00:37:45.135
And you retrain yourself.

00:37:45.135 --> 00:37:47.244
After a couple of weeks of doing that, your shoulders are going to be down.

00:37:47.605 --> 00:37:53.304
Or you're, you know, you're in a discussion with your wife, and you realize you're getting tense.

00:37:54.335 --> 00:37:57.885
And you feel it in your body, and then you feel the emotions.

00:37:58.750 --> 00:38:06.170
Great, and then the next thing I would suggest is, so you're feeling the stress emotions, the reactions, maybe you're getting angry.

00:38:07.690 --> 00:38:11.769
But then I'd have you start to feel the vulnerable emotions.

00:38:13.050 --> 00:38:19.039
And this is where, you know, when we work with couples, we get them to feel the vulnerable emotions.

00:38:19.070 --> 00:38:38.210
Because when you can feel your vulnerable emotion, and you can communicate from your vulnerable emotion, maybe imperfectly, but you lean into it, your partner It's going to feel your vulnerability, she or he is going to down regulate and open up themselves.

00:38:38.230 --> 00:38:45.289
And so, you take a negative spiral of disconnection between the two of you, and you start turning around to be a spiral of connection.

00:38:46.010 --> 00:38:48.519
All because you started connecting with your body.

00:38:50.250 --> 00:38:55.059
Yeah, there is something about being vulnerable and communicating those vulnerabilities.

00:38:55.059 --> 00:38:58.269
It just really opens up a lot, I've found.

00:38:58.269 --> 00:39:08.610
I think it can be a superpower almost, like what people Like somehow the universe just comes around to help you when you are really vulnerable and it's when we buy right on.

00:39:08.920 --> 00:39:11.590
Yeah, but as men, we're told not to do that.

00:39:12.130 --> 00:39:12.519
Yeah.

00:39:13.579 --> 00:39:13.889
Yeah.

00:39:14.860 --> 00:39:26.369
So if we're doing this ourselves and we're just doing like a body scan type meditation and we feel something, say, you know, a pain in our shoulders, right?

00:39:26.449 --> 00:39:28.590
And you're saying don't, don't avoid it.

00:39:29.670 --> 00:39:33.130
How, help me understand, how, how do we go into it?

00:39:33.139 --> 00:39:33.920
How do we feel it?

00:39:33.929 --> 00:39:37.179
Like, is there something we should be asking ourselves at that point?

00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:43.840
You can, you know, I tend to veer away from the more cognitive approach.

00:39:43.869 --> 00:39:53.039
And just, you know, so you notice your shoulders are a little tense, you're holding them, and you go, you drop them, and then you just feel what happens.

00:39:53.059 --> 00:39:54.579
And maybe, you know, often.

00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:56.449
30 seconds later, they're going to go back up.

00:39:56.690 --> 00:39:58.670
You just feel the somatic experience.

00:39:58.670 --> 00:40:03.480
And, you know, what we teach in mindfulness is don't judge it.

00:40:04.809 --> 00:40:05.360
Observe it.

00:40:05.369 --> 00:40:06.230
That's the first thing.

00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:07.019
Just observe it.

00:40:07.389 --> 00:40:09.000
Like you're just watching a movie.

00:40:09.179 --> 00:40:10.159
No judgment.

00:40:10.170 --> 00:40:11.079
You're just observing it.

00:40:12.019 --> 00:40:15.469
Then, you know, you get that one down and then you start to move into it.

00:40:16.269 --> 00:40:23.170
And then from observing to accepting it, all right, you know, I'm observing my shoulders go up.

00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:25.119
No judgment.

00:40:25.119 --> 00:40:25.519
All right.

00:40:25.539 --> 00:40:26.659
Now I'm accepting.

00:40:26.659 --> 00:40:26.949
Yeah.

00:40:26.949 --> 00:40:27.349
Okay.

00:40:27.349 --> 00:40:28.130
They're tense.

00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:28.940
All right.

00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:29.760
Great.

00:40:29.769 --> 00:40:30.519
Next layer.

00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:32.239
What am I feeling?

00:40:32.579 --> 00:40:34.980
Well, I'm feeling, yeah, this tension.

00:40:34.980 --> 00:40:37.010
That's a little painful.

00:40:37.019 --> 00:40:38.760
It's not a pleasant feeling physically.

00:40:39.190 --> 00:40:39.780
Great.

00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:41.849
And then what are you feeling emotionally?

00:40:42.889 --> 00:40:48.219
Oh, and we work with five primary emotions, just as a start, to make it simple.

00:40:48.510 --> 00:40:53.429
Fear, anger, and sadness, like the primary colors, shame, and joy.

00:40:54.179 --> 00:40:58.789
And many more emotions, but we tend to get too elaborate with our emotions.

00:40:58.789 --> 00:41:03.320
So, you know, I'll say a guy, you know, to a guy, out of those five, what do you feel?

00:41:03.690 --> 00:41:05.639
And maybe with the shoulders you feel fear.

00:41:06.644 --> 00:41:11.405
And then, you know, you don't have to justify it, you don't have to explain it, you don't analyze it, you just feel it.

00:41:12.385 --> 00:41:16.574
And then I might go, what are you afraid of?

00:41:17.375 --> 00:41:24.085
And, and then without thinking you might go, oh, I'm going to talk to my boss tomorrow.

00:41:25.105 --> 00:41:34.224
And, and so, I ask questions, and then you can ask yourself questions, they aren't cognitive, they're just experiential.

00:41:34.695 --> 00:42:15.380
And we, and I train men to take another man, like whoever they're working, With deeper and deeper and deeper into their experience because it's my belief and my experience and the research supports This is that if you can go deeper and deeper into your experience Like this guy did on the table that the special forces guy You know more extreme case you will connect to something that you've been disconnected from And it could be a little thing, but a lot of little things add up, plus you, you develop the skill set where at any time you can connect into yourself.

00:42:17.030 --> 00:42:25.170
And it doesn't mean that every time you do that, you need to be vulnerable to someone else, but you can at least be vulnerable to yourself.

00:42:27.460 --> 00:42:32.889
What were those emotions you ask yourself again, fear, anger, sadness, shame?

00:42:33.485 --> 00:42:34.005
Enjoy.

00:42:34.184 --> 00:42:34.525
You got it.

00:42:34.525 --> 00:42:35.094
Enjoy.

00:42:35.204 --> 00:42:35.605
Okay.

00:42:36.164 --> 00:42:38.255
Because joy can be a vulnerable emotion for guys.

00:42:39.394 --> 00:42:39.795
Yeah.

00:42:42.914 --> 00:42:44.364
Never thought of it that way, but yeah.

00:42:45.664 --> 00:42:46.715
Now you're making me think.

00:42:46.974 --> 00:42:51.074
So, I'd like to just recap it to see if I got this right.

00:42:51.074 --> 00:42:56.675
So we, again, in all practical ways, we're just doing a body scan type meditation.

00:42:56.735 --> 00:42:58.485
We feel something in the shoulders.

00:42:58.914 --> 00:42:59.855
We don't judge it.

00:43:00.414 --> 00:43:01.414
We just observe it.

00:43:02.755 --> 00:43:05.375
Watch it like like it's on TV.

00:43:05.655 --> 00:43:11.025
Then we accept that we have it and we tap into what what is the emotion that we have behind that?

00:43:11.795 --> 00:43:14.054
Yeah, and and then go ahead.

00:43:14.364 --> 00:43:16.574
Yeah No, please please go.

00:43:16.644 --> 00:43:28.155
Yeah, and so so that's sort of the critical thing and and sometimes, you know You might ask that question a little too soon and you're and your mind goes we're not going there, you know Well, I don't know and you get sort of block it just out of habit.

00:43:28.735 --> 00:43:40.800
So just keep going back to the physical And so don't try to make it too performative because I tell guys it's like your right hand dominant and we're trying to get you ambidextrous.

00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:52.369
So, you know, out of habit, you're going to keep writing or reaching with your right hand, but eventually, you know, you're going to start getting more coordinated, more custom and to using and stronger with your left hand.

00:43:52.650 --> 00:43:58.300
And so just know that you're not going to immediately go there, but at least go back to your body.

00:43:58.769 --> 00:44:00.829
And what are you feeling in the present moment?

00:44:02.219 --> 00:44:03.969
And see how long you can stay with it.

00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:06.420
And your mind will take you out.

00:44:06.739 --> 00:44:13.050
And being mindful, just being aware, oh, I'm back to thinking, analyzing, or some kind of distraction.

00:44:13.460 --> 00:44:15.420
Fine, great, you're being mindful.

00:44:15.880 --> 00:44:16.739
Come back to your body.

00:44:18.699 --> 00:44:19.059
Okay.

00:44:20.250 --> 00:44:31.369
And once we've accepted it, which can be tough, you know, like I'm Latino, we're machistas, we're tough people, you know, don't want to accept certain things, you know, fear for example.

00:44:31.369 --> 00:44:35.769
And once we do come to accept it, That's when we really start to ask ourselves.

00:44:36.780 --> 00:44:37.949
Why are we afraid?

00:44:38.300 --> 00:44:38.920
What are we afraid?

00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:56.820
Yeah, and I that kind of and I that's the question we usually ask I would not ask that one And okay, we're trained to ask why and but a why question sets up an intellectual answer Okay, ask how or what what am I afraid of not?

00:44:56.820 --> 00:44:58.500
Why am I afraid right?

00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:02.809
And how am I afraid or what do I want to do with the fear?

00:45:03.079 --> 00:45:03.889
Does that make sense?

00:45:05.579 --> 00:45:11.730
We want to avoid the mind, and I tell guys, you know, just have your conscious mind be in the backseat for once.

00:45:13.030 --> 00:45:15.210
It's your, our mind always wants to do something.

00:45:15.579 --> 00:45:17.860
So, you know, have it be the observer, you know.

00:45:18.099 --> 00:45:21.739
And it's like, you know, you're not, you're not driving the bus from the backseat.

00:45:21.789 --> 00:45:25.559
I'm driving the bus, and what's driving the bus is my experience.

00:45:26.829 --> 00:45:33.840
And so if your mind starts to tell you, Well, you gotta do this, so ask why, and you go, thank you for sharing, get in the back.

00:45:35.460 --> 00:45:40.550
Okay, and that's when it, when it starts to come out, I guess, and we can take that stuff out.

00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:40.590
Yes.

00:45:40.760 --> 00:45:41.130
Okay.

00:45:42.380 --> 00:45:49.409
And we do that, we train ourselves to do that, because it's a survival or coping mechanism.

00:45:49.710 --> 00:45:56.789
So when we were a kid and we needed support, we needed secure attachment, we needed someone to co regulate with, and we didn't have that.

00:45:57.400 --> 00:46:02.659
What we did was we went to our mind, and our mind became our parent, our coach, our teacher, our mentor.

00:46:03.340 --> 00:46:09.670
Not a bad thing, but it became too dominant, particularly for us guys.

00:46:09.989 --> 00:46:13.030
And so it's not like it's bad.

00:46:13.050 --> 00:46:16.360
We just don't want it always running the bus or driving the bus.

00:46:16.789 --> 00:46:18.019
Hmm, okay.

00:46:19.630 --> 00:46:23.329
And, and once we've done that work, is there anything to do that we do with it?

00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:25.239
Or we just again go back to observing?

00:46:26.489 --> 00:46:27.250
Another good question.

00:46:27.250 --> 00:46:30.030
So, I created what I call the ROC 40 Minutes.

00:46:30.090 --> 00:46:31.420
R O C.

00:46:31.710 --> 00:46:36.070
So, we slow down and relax, which sets you up to, you know, be mindful.

00:46:36.539 --> 00:46:38.769
And then we open up to vulnerability.

00:46:38.820 --> 00:46:42.239
And this is what you're doing with this little process.

00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:43.949
You're being vulnerable to yourself.

00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:53.199
And out of being vulnerable to yourself, you're setting up to be vulnerable with someone else and them to be vulnerable with you.

00:46:53.559 --> 00:46:59.534
Because when you're vulnerable with yourself, You're sending out cues, like I said earlier, that you're safe.

00:47:00.954 --> 00:47:06.385
And that's an invitation for the other person or people to be vulnerable.

00:47:06.824 --> 00:47:11.114
And then the C is you reach out or risk connection.

00:47:11.434 --> 00:47:18.594
So from that place of vulnerability, you take leadership, and you reach out for connection for the other person.

00:47:18.594 --> 00:47:24.894
So that's what you can do next, is as you keep practicing this, and you'll never get it completely right.

00:47:25.244 --> 00:47:29.074
I've been practicing for close to 50 years and I'm still practicing.

00:47:29.304 --> 00:47:45.574
But you just, to the best of your ability, as you feel connected to yourself or vulnerable to your own experience, from your experience, not your head, not what, from what you think, but what you feel, you start to connect to someone.

00:47:47.164 --> 00:47:53.054
And as you said, you know, vulnerable connection gets vulnerable connection.

00:47:58.905 --> 00:47:59.304
Wow.

00:47:59.355 --> 00:48:06.585
Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna cut it off there, but that's, you've left us with a lot to think about and to practice, really.

00:48:06.614 --> 00:48:16.704
And I would imagine that this is a work in progress that we all got to go through and maybe signing up for one of your programs will help us, you know, understand how to do this.

00:48:16.715 --> 00:48:20.135
Cause it sounds like it's something that we, it doesn't just happen.

00:48:20.135 --> 00:48:21.135
We could use some help with.

00:48:21.760 --> 00:48:34.219
Yeah, it's in, you know, it's pretty simple in one way, but yeah, understanding it helps, but having other guys of practice would be a virtual training or live training or whatever really does it.

00:48:34.230 --> 00:48:42.750
I mean, yeah, you could do it on your own, but, you know, guys come to us because they want to practice it and yeah, and you're not going to get it right.

00:48:46.039 --> 00:48:51.780
But yeah, I would just wrap it all up and say that is the past the leadership.

00:48:52.295 --> 00:48:58.894
When you can do this, and you know, you start to connect to people you lead, businesses and families differently.

00:49:02.704 --> 00:49:07.532
Well, on that note, I'd like to switch over to our Wayfinder 4.

00:49:07.532 --> 00:49:08.175
All right.

00:49:08.764 --> 00:49:10.775
So Oh, and can you give us a hack?

00:49:11.815 --> 00:49:12.864
I think I just did.

00:49:13.864 --> 00:49:14.324
Yeah, yeah.

00:49:14.735 --> 00:49:22.284
That's the whole mindfulness process of using your body as your feedback.

00:49:23.335 --> 00:49:25.905
So, let your body be your feedback.

00:49:26.514 --> 00:49:29.744
And you'll start to know when it gets tense, which is negative feedback.

00:49:30.025 --> 00:49:32.824
And when it feels good or relaxes, it's positive feedback.

00:49:35.844 --> 00:49:37.474
It's the ultimate in biofeedback.

00:49:40.375 --> 00:49:40.764
Excellent.

00:49:41.304 --> 00:49:42.545
What about a favorite?

00:49:45.494 --> 00:49:46.125
I'm sorry, what?

00:49:46.394 --> 00:49:47.014
A favorite.

00:49:47.784 --> 00:49:49.204
A favorite hack or a favorite book?

00:49:49.204 --> 00:49:50.445
A favorite anything.

00:49:50.445 --> 00:49:53.755
Book, show, activity, whatever you'd like.

00:49:53.755 --> 00:49:54.775
Yeah, I saw that.

00:49:54.974 --> 00:49:55.335
Okay.

00:49:55.525 --> 00:49:59.954
I just finished listening to Adam Grant's book on what's it called?

00:49:59.974 --> 00:50:00.664
Think Again.

00:50:01.480 --> 00:50:07.054
And he really, he's a Wharton School business professor.

00:50:07.054 --> 00:50:12.284
And he, he does a lot of research and a lot of it's around, you know, how we think.

00:50:12.784 --> 00:50:20.625
And one of the things he talks about is finding new ways to, to perceive things.

00:50:20.715 --> 00:50:23.594
And to unlearn our ways that we think.

00:50:23.594 --> 00:50:31.974
And, you know, one of the things he It talks about is Amy Edmonton's whole psychology or psychological safety, which is how we work with.

00:50:32.215 --> 00:50:38.934
Because if people feel safe, and this is sort of what we're saying earlier, they're going to think differently and you're going to get more out of them.

00:50:41.235 --> 00:50:48.954
We actually had a whole episode on, on the secure, secure attachment with a psychotherapist from Boulder, Colorado a year ago.

00:50:48.954 --> 00:50:49.684
It's been a while.

00:50:49.894 --> 00:50:50.284
Yeah.

00:50:50.380 --> 00:50:55.739
It's actually one of our most popular episodes.

00:50:55.739 --> 00:50:56.039
Yeah.

00:50:56.480 --> 00:50:56.840
Yeah.

00:50:56.989 --> 00:50:57.860
So I, I get it.

00:50:57.900 --> 00:50:59.650
I think you're, you're right on with that stuff.

00:51:00.559 --> 00:51:03.139
What about a piece of advice for your younger self?

00:51:04.989 --> 00:51:05.590
Yeah.

00:51:05.610 --> 00:51:17.349
What I would have liked to have done, at least more of, is, Use my struggles or challenges I had as more of my superpowers, my assets.

00:51:17.949 --> 00:51:26.760
I mean, some part of me when I was young, I sensed it, but because of the situation and not having the support you know, I just.

00:51:27.090 --> 00:51:47.630
Dealt with it suppressed it and try to compensate for my whatever disabilities and I didn't do a good job Which is really why I got into all this work Which in the long run was a good thing because if I could have sort of faked it until I made it I would have tried but I couldn't I'm so bad at faking it I just gave up and said I'm just gonna try to heal it.

00:51:48.260 --> 00:51:58.349
But if I'd just done that earlier and Said that there's a gift with And I think everyone has weak areas or challenges.

00:51:58.579 --> 00:52:02.719
There's always a latent gift in those disabilities that we all have.

00:52:03.344 --> 00:52:11.534
Yeah, you know, I think that's something I got to give credit to as we've evolved that the new generations benefit from.

00:52:12.195 --> 00:52:15.364
I'm probably in a transitional generation.

00:52:15.364 --> 00:52:18.574
I suspect you know, you're a little bit older than me.

00:52:19.394 --> 00:52:30.599
And where I see that a lot of folks who grew up, in your ever and even during mine that with ADHD, for example it was just seen as such a handicap and we, we internalize that, right?

00:52:30.989 --> 00:52:36.309
And only now in life and later in life that we start to accept that that's actually a superpower.

00:52:36.690 --> 00:52:41.559
And I think we're doing a great job for our kids that they're starting to, you know, grow up with that.

00:52:41.559 --> 00:53:02.494
There's so many resources with that, you know in any, any of such I think, you know, you see it with now guys are proud that they have Asperger's because, you know, all these guys have it, you know, and they're proud that that dyslexia because a lot of entrepreneurs have it and they think differently and they D because they work fast and all that.

00:53:02.514 --> 00:53:06.114
All the things I had now, now it's cool to have, but it wasn't back then.

00:53:06.514 --> 00:53:07.605
I think that's great.

00:53:08.215 --> 00:53:13.320
I have a bit of a problem with how There's all these drugs that people, particularly kids, take for this.

00:53:13.320 --> 00:53:14.949
Yeah, I do too.

00:53:15.289 --> 00:53:19.579
Yeah, I think there's ways to deal with it that are a lot more effective than drugs.

00:53:19.869 --> 00:53:25.599
And, well, going down a big rabbit hole, but I think, you know, boys need to be active.

00:53:25.849 --> 00:53:30.659
We're not meant to sit in these desks for eight hours or six hours, whatever it is a day.

00:53:30.900 --> 00:53:33.480
So I think we need to work with our physiology.

00:53:33.480 --> 00:53:36.239
And when we work with our physiology we perform better.

00:53:36.525 --> 00:53:38.934
In all realms, including intellectually.

00:53:41.125 --> 00:53:49.085
So last one, you get to choose if you can talk a little bit about either a big opportunity that you see out there, or a limiting belief.

00:53:49.585 --> 00:53:53.260
I think there's a lot of opportunities for men using this perspective.

00:53:53.514 --> 00:54:00.715
Probably one of the biggest limiting beliefs I've ever had, and I hear so often with other guys, is that I need to do it alone.

00:54:01.144 --> 00:54:03.434
And, or I can't ask for help.

00:54:03.445 --> 00:54:05.364
They're sort of corollaries of each other.

00:54:05.704 --> 00:54:18.675
And you know, I wouldn't be where I am today if I tried to do it alone and I didn't get help, you know, from asking for help, for paying for help to, you know, go in and learn things, but and I think.

00:54:19.150 --> 00:54:25.769
To go with what you were saying earlier, I think the younger generation is more willing to do that than my generation was, which is great.

00:54:26.090 --> 00:54:26.460
Yeah.

00:54:26.920 --> 00:54:31.510
But yeah, this whole lone wolf thing, we've outgrown that.

00:54:32.619 --> 00:54:35.719
Yeah, no, I still struggle with that one myself all the time, so.

00:54:36.460 --> 00:54:38.420
Yeah, it's a good one, especially for men.

00:54:39.079 --> 00:54:45.579
What about if people want to know more about you and your programs, they want to look into it, where should they go?

00:54:46.230 --> 00:54:50.909
Yeah, they can go to our website, which is meld, M E L D, dot community.

00:54:50.940 --> 00:54:53.579
That's community spelled out, so it's meld dot community.

00:54:54.429 --> 00:54:55.940
We have everything there.

00:54:56.190 --> 00:55:00.250
You can sign up, and you can do a, you know, call with me.

00:55:00.289 --> 00:55:02.199
We've got virtual courses.

00:55:02.199 --> 00:55:05.960
We've got intense, small virtual groups.

00:55:05.960 --> 00:55:07.639
We have live trainings.

00:55:08.050 --> 00:55:14.789
You know, this is something that I've been honing for, specifically for 20 years, but in general for over 40 years.

00:55:16.099 --> 00:55:25.460
And we've just in this form of working with men helped thousands of men and trained coaches, therapists, psychiatrists in how to do this work.

00:55:26.440 --> 00:55:26.840
Excellent.

00:55:27.550 --> 00:55:30.179
Yeah, what you do have a ton of information on there.

00:55:30.179 --> 00:55:31.059
I did check it out.

00:55:31.190 --> 00:55:32.739
It's, it's incredible.

00:55:32.789 --> 00:55:36.869
It's a well packed website with, and you have a lot of great programs there.

00:55:37.190 --> 00:55:39.650
One question I forgot to ask, what is MELD?

00:55:41.019 --> 00:55:44.250
MELD stands for Men's Emotional Leadership Development.

00:55:46.050 --> 00:55:46.369
Excellent.

00:55:46.429 --> 00:55:56.730
And, you know, my experience is that we become leaders when we can integrate our emotions and really our physiology, and when we can use this communal factor, when we can do it with people.

00:55:57.679 --> 00:56:05.210
And so that's really what we're about, is developing leaders, and one of our little taglines is that we lead from within.

00:56:06.494 --> 00:56:06.945
Excellent.

00:56:08.224 --> 00:56:10.614
Well, thank you so much for being on the show, Owen.

00:56:10.625 --> 00:56:13.184
This has been this has been very eye opening.

00:56:13.184 --> 00:56:18.465
I love the exercises here to learn how to get more feedback from our bodies.

00:56:18.965 --> 00:56:21.675
You're doing great work for us, so really appreciate it.

00:56:21.675 --> 00:56:23.034
I hope everybody goes to mel.

00:56:23.255 --> 00:56:25.375
community and, and checks it out.

00:56:25.974 --> 00:56:30.335
Well, thank you for having us and, you know, and sharing me with your audience.
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