Leadership and Candor: Insights with Todd Holzman

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Leadership is everybody's right and everybody's responsibility because, you know, everybody that I know, clients, friends, inside of their families, at work, communities.

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You know, churches, whatever, they are bothered by all kinds of problems all the time that they see, or they're excited about opportunities to make things better, and they're always being called upon.

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All of us are always being called upon every day.

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So we're going to talk about these things.

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Welcome to The Wayfinder Show with Luis Hernandez, where guests discuss the why and how of making changes that led them down a more authentic path or allow them to level up in some area of their life.

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Our goal is to dig deep and provide not only knowledge, but actionable advice to help you get from where you are to where you want to be.

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Come join us and find the way to your dream life.

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Welcome back to the wayfinder show.

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I'm your host, Louie Hernandez, and we're here with Todd Holzman today.

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Todd founded Holzman leadership after decades in a career in leadership development and organizational consultant.

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Holtzman Leadership is committed to sustainable behavior change and measurable business impact.

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Todd has taught world leaders at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, developed doctoral students at Columbia University, trained tens of thousands of leaders globally, and certified hundreds of consultants and trainers in his real work process.

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No matter whom he's working with, Or the problem he's solving Todd's driving passion is to develop the difference makers to be a force for good in the world.

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So with that, welcome to the wayfinder show, Todd.

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Thank you, Louie.

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I appreciate it.

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Thanks for having me.

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So Todd, you know, there's an age old question I've always been wondering the answer to, and that is like, what makes a good leader?

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So an age old question that somehow in the first two minutes of this podcast, I'm supposed to finally enlighten you on.

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you know, I'd rather talk about what's good leadership because We, that's what we need a lot more of in the world, not just people, to lead better from positions of authority.

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Because a lot of times we talk about leaders, right?

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We talk about, somebody getting to the top position, having lots of power and authority.

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the folks that I was really influenced by, at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, Ron Hypass and Dean Williams.

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They make a distinction between leaders and leadership.

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Because I imagine, you know, everybody who's listening here, you've seen, you've probably known a lot of leaders that you don't get much leadership from.

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And you probably know a lot of people who aren't technically leaders, but you can count on them to exercise leadership.

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And so what I, and these, amazing gentlemen mean by leadership, it's the ability to mobilize it, connect with people to confront and deal with real problems.

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And opportunities to make things better.

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And that means it's something that you can do when you actually are the leader, but perhaps even more importantly, something that you can do, regardless of whether you have a lot of authority and power that you can do, regardless of your place in the hierarchy or your role in the organization.

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I think thinking about leadership in this way.

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So in this way, then, leadership is everybody's right and everybody's responsibility, because, you know, everybody that I know, clients, friends, inside of their families, at work, communities, you know, churches, whatever, they are bothered by all kinds of problems all the time that they see, or they're excited about opportunities to make things better.

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They're always being called upon.

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All of us are always being called upon every day.

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So are we going to talk about these things?

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Are we going to try to address them with our friends, our colleagues, our managers, our clients?

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Or are we going to avoid them, you know, and work around them?

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And so what makes a great leader?

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Somebody who exercises leadership on a regular basis.

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And that means that you're going to talk to other people about the real issues And opportunities to make things better that maybe they're avoiding, they don't want to deal with, they're blind to, they're struggling with.

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And find a way to kind of also step up and engage.

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I've had lead, you know, now I, I have my own businesses, but I've worked in corporate environments.

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Right.

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And one of them was, the Boy Scouts of America.

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I actually started my professional career there.

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and you know, they, they're great for leadership development, both in, with youth and with executives.

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I mean, they have world class programs, right?

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And, but one of the things I would notice is there were people within the organization, whether they be volunteers or executives, right?

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Who just can take a problem and rally everybody around it.

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And it isn't one that might even be a priority of the organization or, you know, at the top, but that person, they usually stand out very quick and, there's no ego, there's no, you don't know what their resume looks like, what their position is, but people are there.

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they have that it quality that people come around to, and they lead them to get these great problems solved.

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Right?

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and I've always looked at those people as the real leaders.

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Right?

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and

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was it always, Somebody like the top dog who was doing it or was it also sometimes people at lower levels who would even Engage the higher level people in facing things.

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That's exactly right.

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there are people at the high levels, too Of course, I think somewhere along the way you probably were that person to get there oftentimes I found that the people at the highest levels Weren't now that isn't always the case.

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There's Some leaders I've always really appreciated and respected at very high levels who were servant leaders.

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they wanted to know everybody at the different hierarchy, how they operated and support them they really made that servant leadership, a priority rather than their vision for ego's sake.

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or to do it just because they're the ones in charge, does that make sense?

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Like,

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something that you said about servant leadership, the guy who invented the term was a guy named Greenleaf, So what's implicit in my definition of leadership, which I said is about mobilizing connected with people to confront and deal with problems and opportunities to make things better, is that you're exercising leadership on behalf of bringing more good into the world.

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So, in that sense, You are trying to serve people in the world and that has to be your objective.

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It has to be your ultimate goal.

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It's not about ambition, self interest, money, power, any of that.

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Now you may accrue those things as a result of doing that.

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Well, I remember my first martial arts teacher, uh, this amazing, um, started doing Taekwondo when I was, You know, already in my late teens, I, my, when I went to Cornell undergrad and uh, I found, uh, all these, this fight sites that do do it competitively, uh, very, uh, very stressful.

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And because somebody wants to hit you.

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And, he used to say, and I also found the prospect of.

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Winning and not losing very stressful.

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he used to say, fight your best fight and let the winning take care of itself.

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This was, Han Cho, amazing instructor, amazing martial artist.

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And I think leadership is like that.

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It's.

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You do your best to do good with a true heart for people and the world or the organization that you're in or your customers, however you want to slice it, and good will accrue to you as a result.

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and what I liked about, your example from the boy scouts, it reminded me of somebody.

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I've got this large global faculty, 13 people and growing.

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Most of them, are not in the states and the rest are stateside they're great coaches leadership trainers sales trainers and organization development consultants.

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I still do the work myself and i'm providing personal coaching to, the North American CEO for a well known luxury brand we met at the Harvard club the other day, and he was telling me the story about how he had given presentation.

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I think it was to the entire sales force.

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and so he's got first line set of manners, probably three different levels in the room below him.

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And then a week later, somebody at the lowest level, like kind of like sales rep level, book some time with him.

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And she says to him, I don't like the fact that you referred to our brand as a sub brand.

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And he said back to her, but I referred to all of them as a sub brand.

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Now I want to look at that as an example of leadership on both parts.

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What was great about what she did, so the CEO is what, three levels above him, but he said something that rubbed her wrong, and also it was rubbing her wrong because it was rubbing her whole group wrong.

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So the last thing you want to do as a CEO is say something by accident and demotivate your entire sales force.

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But she had the courage, and I think as a characteristic, courage is certainly a dimension, not the only dimension, but it's certainly a crucial dimension around leadership.

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she had the courage to step up and have that conversation, and had she not, he'd have been totally in the dark, about how his inadvertent words had demotivated the entire sales force.

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So, God bless her for doing that, and God bless him for how he responded.

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it's like, okay, that certainly wasn't my intention, but why does it bother you that use those terms?

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Well, I think you think you think that we're less than, and why is that?

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he was able to clean up the whole thing.

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He didn't make her wrong for it.

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So it's more likely than not that she and other people will get the message about how open he was.

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He received the feedback with grace.

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He changed his communication.

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He cleaned it up.

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That's a leadership culture, man.

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and both ends of the hierarchy had to do their part, but it started with somebody who had the least power and authority in the organization speaking to the most powerful person in the organization, and it took courage and her part, and it started to have curiosity and compassion on his part.

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And those would be three good C's courage, curiosity, compassion.

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And they talked about something that actually really mattered.

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And it led to a resolution that had it not been discussed would have festered and hurt sales performance and hurt their morale.

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And then it hurts them psychologically, right?

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Cause they feel bad.

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And then you bring it home.

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So this is why candor becomes so important to leadership and is probably the Amongst two or three capabilities, arguably, I think the most one of the top three most important because we can't make the world better if we can't talk about the issues.

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That the addressing of which will make things better and this is where people More often than not really struggle.

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I've seen organizations where whether you know, one level isn't allowed to talk to the next right?

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So just right in the same room with four levels of hierarchy difference and That shows a lot of, what self confidence, I think, as an organization, right.

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That even allows that.

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And I will say, I don't think this is a, this is a global organization.

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I don't think, I don't know if this is true, but my sense is, that dynamic, which I was just sharing with you, it's not like it's a part of the culture worldwide.

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So, what's also true is there is something called culture, right, that often can cut across an entire country.

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Sometimes the culture is specific to a certain region, if you're looking at a global organization, or a certain territory, if you're looking at smaller organizations.

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But also, I think what the story says is, if what I'm saying is true, that the right leader can also create an aberration, a positive aberration to the rest of the culture.

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There is some choice that people have in the matter, because we are, through our actions, we're either colluding with the culture as it is, or we're helping to move it in a healthy space.

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And we often see culture as something out here that we have no influence on.

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But if you just go along with the culture, you're silently reinforcing it.

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Now, if you push yourself too far outside of the culture, right?

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Like, let's say there would have been some rule that you can't talk to this guy, and she would have somehow got some time with him.

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And then she would have to handle that so well, so competently, um, to not create a problem for herself.

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But maybe she would have to have a conversation with somebody else who could then have the conversation with this person.

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So it doesn't mean she would have to not have it, it would just mean she would have to be much smarter about how she, and skillful about how she approaches it.

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Yeah, so, talking about this, topic of candor.

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Yeah.

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I think it is interesting, Probably the majority of people who work for companies at some point feel a certain level of, disenfranchisement, burnout, they're not happy with where they work for one reason or another.

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And I think, a big underlying effect is that lack of being able to be candid.

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So with the powers that be And why do you

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say it's, why do you frame it as empowered?

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Oh, interesting question.

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I think

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we're coming

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to it.

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I think that a lot of us, we look at where we work as an employer.

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We need that.

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We need it.

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we look at it as we need to work there because that's how we feed our family and, you know, it satisfies our, it, it completes our identity.

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Right.

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I mean, so much of our identity in America or in a lot of places in the world are who we work for.

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All of those things, and we're afraid of losing it, right?

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we're afraid that, hey, if we go and we tell this person something they don't want to hear, then we're going to lose our jobs, or our jobs are going to get even harder, you know?

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And, and there are organizations where I think that, that could be the case.

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There's been examples of it, so therefore people don't feel like they can be candid.

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Okay, this is going to be, very interesting.

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I have some hopefully useful things to say about that.

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So the headline of everything I'm about to say is something like, it definitely has to do with that.

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You're right that it's partially about empowerment, but probably not as much as people think

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and

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feel.

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I'll get into that.

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first of all, to support your assertion around the empowerment thing, yes, people are, for understandable reasons, afraid.

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Of saying what they think particularly if it's they're going to be disagreeing with someone Because there's a lot at stake right their credibility their credibility which can affect their Bonuses their career advancement, you know All of that And you can pay the ultimate price of getting fired and I have it we're doing just that.

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and a lot of, and a lot of companies, big and small struggle with, terms you've heard before, like psychological safety.

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And creating an environment where people can create speak up cultures.

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And the example I was giving you was demonstrating just the opposite.

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There was, at least with this leader, a lot of room to speak up.

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What people don't realize is if they were more skilled, they would have a lot more room to speak up without all these bad things that they fear happening, that might happen from happening.

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So I'll give an example.

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I'll give a couple of examples.

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Well, Ken, before

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you go, by saying if they were more skilled,

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Yeah.

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Do you

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mean at their jobs or at communicating?

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communicating.

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So, and that might feel to you and your listeners like pretty bold statement.

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I think I have some good reasons to say it, but also give an example a second because one of the things that we do in our work, whether we're coaching an individual, a team training, dozens of leaders through our leadership programs, or coaching, hundreds to thousands of salespeople.

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We do a lot of that in the pharma and it space about how to have much more productive conversations with their customers and ways that deepen relationships, but also move the needle in terms of them growing their businesses.

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And that, which means they often have challenged.

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There are customers in the way they're thinking, and they're scared because they don't want to lose access.

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They don't want to hurt the relationship, all of that.

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And what they do is they always bring to us a conversation that they want to have that they think if I can have it, well, it'll make things better, but I'm afraid of having it because it could make things worse

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or

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one that I had where I didn't get the results that I wanted.

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Right.

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Despite my best intentions.

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And we have a very cool way of, of a foolproof way of figuring out how did it How do they actually talk in those situations?

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We get access to very reliable data on that, when you look at the data, we've looked at well over 30, 000 documented conversations where people predicted they wouldn't get the results that they wanted or actually didn't.

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In every one of those instances, not to say there isn't somebody that they're dealing with that's just difficult, Close, stubborn, whatever, that got their own personal agenda.

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But for all the people that sent us these examples, there is always something that they're doing or not doing, which is preventing the conversation from going a lot better.

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Number one.

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Number two, they don't realize that.

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Almost everybody's got a major blind spot.

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Um, when the conversations just don't go well.

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What is it about their approach that's part of the problem?

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So as an example, one of the things that people have been, have either, for whatever reason, think is a good idea is, here's an old ditty, try to make the person to believe this is their idea.

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Some conventional wisdom would teach you how to do that.

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And the mechanism for doing that is called the leading question.

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Right?

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So if my partner were listening now, she might say, Todd, do you think it's a good idea to talk as much as you do on these podcasts?

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Right?

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Now, if she were to say that to me, we know it's not a question.

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It is a statement barely disguised as a question.

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But it's designed to get me to see it so she doesn't have to say it.

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Well, the thing with these leading questions is they backfire almost all the time, they never work.

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But when you are the person who is asking a leading question, it doesn't get, you don't realize you're asking a leading question, you actually think you're making a point.

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But you're actually not, you're trying to disguise your point, you're asking a form of a question.

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So when it backfires on you, A lot of people think, you see, they're not open to honesty.

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The truth is though, you weren't honest.

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You asked a question and tried to pretend like it was a question.

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so people have got major blind spots around where they don't get good responses to their communication.

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What is it about them and the way they're communicating that's contributing to that?

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That's

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a great,

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my field has done a horrible idea, Louie of, of really explaining it in a, in a.

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In an easy to remember Useful way what does good look like in these important conversations?

00:21:33.508 --> 00:21:39.647
We've done a horrible job of that I mean people still advocate for can I curse in this podcast?

00:21:40.837 --> 00:21:41.788
Yeah, absolutely.

00:21:41.978 --> 00:21:44.018
Okay, the shit sandwich.

00:21:44.117 --> 00:21:44.458
Yeah.

00:21:44.698 --> 00:21:52.678
Okay, I'm going to say some good stuff, then I'm going to say the shit that I really think is important, and then I'm going to end it with some, some good stuff again.

00:21:52.728 --> 00:21:56.938
First of all, it's phony manipulative, and people see through it.

00:21:57.387 --> 00:21:59.087
Now, it's not even a shit sandwich anymore.

00:21:59.087 --> 00:22:00.508
It's more like a shit focaccia, right?

00:22:00.508 --> 00:22:01.288
Because we don't have the time.

00:22:01.847 --> 00:22:03.978
So, so we gotta, we gotta shorten it.

00:22:04.708 --> 00:22:19.887
So, what happens is, this is why I'm making the case for, I'm not saying the environments maximally encourage people to express the truth to what they think, but a lot of it is, people just don't know what to do.

00:22:20.847 --> 00:22:25.817
And the ideas that we have fed them are often bad ideas.

00:22:26.593 --> 00:22:46.413
That then when they do speak up they get bad results and they go you see the environment isn't open to it And so this is where you know, we've invested a lot of time Um, this is this has been my singular obsession is figuring out So what does good look like in these situations and how do we help people get beyond their fears?

00:22:46.413 --> 00:22:50.163
And so they can produce this effective Conversational behavior.

00:22:52.053 --> 00:22:54.452
Yeah, man, that is a great point.

00:22:54.452 --> 00:22:57.272
You know, i'm thinking i've been guilty of the leading questions.

00:22:57.303 --> 00:22:59.442
I mean Hey, I'm an interviewer here on a podcast.

00:22:59.442 --> 00:23:00.563
So that's kind of what I do.

00:23:01.182 --> 00:23:04.702
you haven't asked me one leading question at least, or at least you're fooling me.

00:23:04.982 --> 00:23:06.722
You ask curious questions.

00:23:06.772 --> 00:23:07.623
I am curious.

00:23:07.623 --> 00:23:07.893
Yes.

00:23:07.893 --> 00:23:08.452
You're not

00:23:08.472 --> 00:23:10.522
trying to make me think what you think.

00:23:10.873 --> 00:23:14.688
You may be asking me provocative questions to pull something out of me.

00:23:14.998 --> 00:23:30.778
Or maybe you'll ask a good interviewer a question in a challenging way, but you're doing it in order to get whatever my truth is out of my head through my mouth, not to get your truth through my mouth.

00:23:30.798 --> 00:23:31.657
That's the difference.

00:23:31.958 --> 00:23:32.377
Right.

00:23:33.163 --> 00:23:37.603
So, you know, I think that you touched on something, though, with the leading questions as an example.

00:23:37.962 --> 00:23:46.883
I think, we often, when we're frustrated and we're trying to communicate something, we'll think of a way that we think is brilliant of communicating something, right?

00:23:47.222 --> 00:23:52.732
And that could be the leading question, as an example, or it could be another way, how we reframe something, what have you.

00:23:53.012 --> 00:23:55.002
But we usually only go one deep.

00:23:55.292 --> 00:24:01.192
And if it doesn't work, we think, okay, I've done everything I can, but that person just doesn't get it.

00:24:01.212 --> 00:24:05.962
and we don't look back on to how to, Reframe it to actually be effective, right?

00:24:06.222 --> 00:24:12.222
So with that in mind, I'm curious, you know, at the risk of you giving away, your services here.

00:24:12.303 --> 00:24:13.653
What, what is the right way?

00:24:13.663 --> 00:24:16.702
Like, how do, how do we actually get out?

00:24:17.123 --> 00:24:22.282
No, let me get there secondarily, because I want to come back to this assertion that I made.

00:24:24.353 --> 00:24:25.573
It's always the question.

00:24:26.022 --> 00:24:31.272
Is it me or the environment that I'm working within that stopping me?

00:24:31.272 --> 00:24:31.323
Right.

00:24:31.583 --> 00:24:37.692
For expressing myself more effectively around things that matter.

00:24:38.333 --> 00:24:42.343
the thing is, the universe is knocking on our door every day.

00:24:42.563 --> 00:24:44.492
It bothers us about things.

00:24:44.553 --> 00:24:46.563
And the question is, are we going to talk about it or not?

00:24:48.282 --> 00:24:53.482
So, I remember there was this guy, and you made a great point that people become, disenfranchised.

00:24:54.643 --> 00:24:58.012
Sometimes because of this phenomenon, because yeah.

00:24:58.012 --> 00:25:07.303
Why wouldn't you, if you feel like you can't express the truth of what you think, it's incredibly demoralizing and just hang on because of survival needs.

00:25:07.313 --> 00:25:18.712
It has a way, it can have a way of degrading your soul at some level, you know, and then of course you're looking for the exit and maybe you can find something that's closer to your passion to have your own business and all of that.

00:25:18.712 --> 00:25:19.173
It's great.

00:25:19.423 --> 00:25:21.452
And I don't want to fault anybody for any of that.

00:25:21.563 --> 00:25:22.153
Because.

00:25:22.688 --> 00:25:24.188
You're probably a bunch of your audience.

00:25:24.188 --> 00:25:30.938
They're either entrepreneurs or budding entrepreneurs, and maybe they've known their whole lives, they should be doing something.

00:25:31.357 --> 00:25:33.448
And they're only finding their courage now.

00:25:33.817 --> 00:25:40.968
And they took the safe route for understandable reasons, and now they don't feel like they have to, or they're just fed up.

00:25:41.268 --> 00:25:45.018
So for those class of people, I mean, go forth and prosper, man.

00:25:46.157 --> 00:25:49.887
But there are other people, but I also want people to have more of a choice in the matter.

00:25:50.988 --> 00:26:00.182
And an example I'll give you, about somebody who was disaffected And then when they applied what we had taught them, they stayed on the job.

00:26:00.853 --> 00:26:10.702
So there was this guy at a, let's call it one of the largest, telecommunication slash technology companies in the world based not in America overseas.

00:26:11.798 --> 00:26:16.387
And they had hired this guy, I don't know.

00:26:17.127 --> 00:26:19.028
And he was a brilliant guy.

00:26:19.038 --> 00:26:24.117
they finally got him on board and after, six months in the company, he was ready to quit.

00:26:24.127 --> 00:26:26.867
It was like, this place is so complicated.

00:26:27.137 --> 00:26:28.837
It's so bureaucratic.

00:26:28.907 --> 00:26:30.708
You can't get anything done.

00:26:30.758 --> 00:26:32.407
I want to kill myself.

00:26:33.077 --> 00:26:39.897
He comes to the workshop, and he brings this case study, like we have people write up about an example where he couldn't get somebody else.

00:26:40.363 --> 00:26:45.413
in another department to help him and his team solve some problem, no matter what he tried.

00:26:46.012 --> 00:26:47.413
And we looked at the way he was trying.

00:26:47.482 --> 00:26:49.633
No wonder why he failed, right?

00:26:49.653 --> 00:27:00.482
Because he was falling into all kinds of traps, leading questions, by the way, jumping to action, like offering solutions that before the guy even agreed there was a problem, as an example.

00:27:01.498 --> 00:27:24.288
And we helped him see that, and then we taught him some of the things which we may talk about now, about how to have a much better conversation with those people, and he started realizing that in order to be more effective here, he was going to have to make some major adjustments in the way he communicates with people, and once he started doing that, he started getting more done, and at least as far as I knew until two years later, he was still there.

00:27:25.432 --> 00:27:30.333
You know, and he was happier, and people were happier with him.

00:27:30.333 --> 00:27:32.843
so I guess that there's a rule of thumb, I would say.

00:27:34.952 --> 00:27:38.643
See, the problem with leaving questions, or jumping to action, right?

00:27:38.712 --> 00:27:43.083
Hey, let me offer you a solution to a problem that we haven't even just talked about and you don't even agree with, right?

00:27:43.423 --> 00:27:46.012
So if I offer you a solution to a problem that you don't even agree you have.

00:27:46.633 --> 00:27:52.742
Or that you're not even motivated to solve what's going to happen to my even if it's an awesome solution What's going to happen?

00:27:52.752 --> 00:27:57.992
This is called the leading question, by the way, nothing exactly, you know sales one on one, right?

00:27:57.992 --> 00:28:01.077
You got to sell to a need You got to sell a problem or a pain.

00:28:01.307 --> 00:28:02.978
You can't just promote your solution.

00:28:03.718 --> 00:28:05.367
So the same thing in sales, right?

00:28:05.768 --> 00:28:06.627
People have a problem.

00:28:06.627 --> 00:28:07.928
They're not looking for a solution.

00:28:07.928 --> 00:28:14.817
So the problem with leading questions and, and this other trap of jumping to action, that was one of the biggest traps that we see people fall into.

00:28:14.817 --> 00:28:28.627
We'd look at all this conversational data that we've been very lucky to have access to is there's no real discussion on the problem to be solved and therefore.

00:28:29.117 --> 00:28:32.758
If you can't talk about the problem, you can't agree that the problem actually exists.

00:28:32.968 --> 00:28:36.837
You can't create any motive, and you can't create any motivation to address it.

00:28:37.188 --> 00:28:50.532
And if you want to solve a problem, if you want to exercise leadership, and mobilize and connect with people to solve tough problems, or to seize exciting opportunities, They have to agree that the problem exists, and we have to talk about it.

00:28:50.923 --> 00:28:54.853
So, this is not going to be very, technique oriented, what I'm giving you.

00:28:54.853 --> 00:28:57.053
There are techniques that underpin what I'm about to share.

00:28:57.432 --> 00:29:06.413
But the basic rule is, step one, agree on what's true.

00:29:08.923 --> 00:29:13.292
Then, step two, figure out what to do.

00:29:15.482 --> 00:29:19.803
So, align, or discuss, align, agree on what's true.

00:29:21.178 --> 00:29:22.667
And then figure out what to do.

00:29:23.488 --> 00:29:31.978
And you don't talk about what we should do, unless people are in line at what's true and they want to make it better than it is.

00:29:32.827 --> 00:29:35.298
And that's a huge trap that people fall into.

00:29:35.317 --> 00:29:40.117
We avoid discussing, talking about the real problems or opportunities.

00:29:41.307 --> 00:29:48.607
And that's vital because the agreement that those exist and the motivation to do it is a precursor to progress.

00:29:50.877 --> 00:29:56.627
I hear that and I'm thinking of it in terms of like just middle school word problems in math, right?

00:29:56.627 --> 00:29:58.928
You have your scenarios painted there.

00:29:59.798 --> 00:30:07.117
Before you even start to solve the problem, you should be looking for what are the, what are the givens?

00:30:07.762 --> 00:30:09.673
what is actually true there?

00:30:09.893 --> 00:30:13.583
and list them out and then go to use that to solve the problem.

00:30:13.988 --> 00:30:15.992
So, now we're entering a social system,

00:30:16.472 --> 00:30:16.742
right?

00:30:16.803 --> 00:30:28.232
Whereas you've gotta, something's bugging you and you think there's a certain problem, the likelihood that it's bugging other people to the degree that it's bugging you, the likelihood that other people even see it like you do.

00:30:28.778 --> 00:30:29.377
is low.

00:30:29.788 --> 00:30:35.407
There might be some people, but usually the people you need the help from are the people who don't already agree it's a problem.

00:30:36.018 --> 00:30:42.817
So you can do all that work personally, but now you've got to create a shared truth with other people.

00:30:43.278 --> 00:30:43.438
You

00:30:43.438 --> 00:30:52.823
got to get other people who are blind to this thing, who want to avoid it, to actually agree that this is a problem.

00:30:53.313 --> 00:31:05.373
And that is a huge step we step over, because if the person ends up disagreeing, if they're upset, it gets into a conflict, I hurt my relationship with them, especially I do with my boss, it creates a huge problem.

00:31:05.532 --> 00:31:06.883
And now I'm putting my career at risk.

00:31:07.123 --> 00:31:09.932
So people feel constantly in a tremendous honesty dilemma.

00:31:10.093 --> 00:31:12.042
Is a, is a term that I quote, how do

00:31:12.042 --> 00:31:12.702
we know?

00:31:12.752 --> 00:31:18.512
if it is a real problem for everybody, a problem we've identified and we're trying to enlist people to help us resolve that problem?

00:31:18.542 --> 00:31:23.458
how do we identify, how do we know if it really is a problem for everybody or if it's just a problem to us?

00:31:23.462 --> 00:31:23.722
Mm-Hmm,

00:31:25.143 --> 00:31:27.278
that's a great question.

00:31:27.758 --> 00:31:27.998
Thank you.

00:31:28.538 --> 00:31:29.498
That's a great question.

00:31:29.498 --> 00:31:32.637
So lemme say, here's what you don't do.

00:31:33.548 --> 00:31:40.438
You don't decide that unilaterally you like uni, meaning one meaning by yourself.

00:31:41.557 --> 00:31:46.407
You have to make that determination jointly with other people.

00:31:47.307 --> 00:31:49.258
So then the question becomes, how do you do that?

00:31:50.317 --> 00:32:03.617
Well, you have to do that by, articulating, the problem statement and articulating that in a.

00:32:04.272 --> 00:32:12.603
And I'm being very intentional and precise about my words now, in a very clear, credible, and compelling way.

00:32:14.843 --> 00:32:16.553
And I would say those three C's are vital.

00:32:17.143 --> 00:32:31.553
So clear means you're actually stating the problem clearly, so that going back to your middle school, or maybe even a fifth grader, You can understand what the heck you're talking about, okay?

00:32:32.232 --> 00:32:33.883
You better be credible.

00:32:34.633 --> 00:32:37.923
So you think this is a problem, that's your opinion, man.

00:32:37.923 --> 00:32:38.932
That's wonderful.

00:32:40.133 --> 00:32:43.022
But, what's your evidence that this thing actually exists?

00:32:43.103 --> 00:32:43.972
What's your data?

00:32:44.712 --> 00:32:46.813
You know, cause I can't learn anything from your opinion.

00:32:47.478 --> 00:33:09.038
what are the things that we both might look at are objectively true, and it's your interpretation of that that leads you that this is a problem, but you got to anchor it in data and evidence, examples, whatever it is, even that's not enough, do step one and two, you're clear on your point on the problem, you've given the data and evidence to back it up, people could go, okay, that exists.

00:33:09.343 --> 00:33:13.173
Doesn't mean anybody wants to do anything about it just because it exists.

00:33:13.173 --> 00:33:16.163
Just because it's valid doesn't mean it's valuable just because it exists.

00:33:16.163 --> 00:33:17.682
Doesn't mean we have to do anything about it.

00:33:17.782 --> 00:33:21.623
There are lots of problems exist that aren't, there are lots of issues that exist that aren't in fact problems.

00:33:23.163 --> 00:33:24.432
So that's why you have to be compelling.

00:33:24.813 --> 00:33:27.663
You've got to clearly articulate why anybody should give a shit.

00:33:29.782 --> 00:33:43.163
And you got to talk about like inside your company, why should we care given the things that we collectively care about, the performance of our business, serving this set of customers.

00:33:44.077 --> 00:33:46.938
beating the competition, whatever your objectives are for your business.

00:33:46.998 --> 00:33:52.827
But you also got to, you got to connect with people below the neck, man, to their hearts.

00:33:52.877 --> 00:33:54.678
Like what's the with them for you?

00:33:55.647 --> 00:34:00.178
And what's the downsides for you and us as an organization if we don't address this problem?

00:34:00.238 --> 00:34:01.897
And what are the upsides if we do?

00:34:02.807 --> 00:34:07.688
And then when you do that, then at least you've done your piece of it.

00:34:08.268 --> 00:34:11.577
And then you've got to ask people, then the last C is you've got to be curious.

00:34:12.043 --> 00:34:22.452
Then you got to ask people, so when you hear what my point of view is on the problem, and my data for it, and why I think it's important, what do you all think about that?

00:34:23.393 --> 00:34:24.672
And it can't be a leading question.

00:34:25.043 --> 00:34:27.932
You got to be genuinely curious about what they have to say.

00:34:29.132 --> 00:34:36.483
But if you don't do your bit first, what those now four C's, right, clear, credible, convincing and curious.

00:34:37.637 --> 00:34:43.507
Or, um, do not blame them for, uh, for not agreeing.

00:34:43.507 --> 00:34:45.327
There is a problem that needs to work on.

00:34:45.978 --> 00:34:51.427
And this is often where the gaps are in people's, their own communication.

00:34:52.007 --> 00:34:55.117
They're not clear on the problem, right?

00:34:55.628 --> 00:34:58.387
Corporate speak, man, kills all of us.

00:34:59.358 --> 00:35:02.117
I think we have an opportunity to be more proactive.

00:35:02.338 --> 00:35:04.277
What in God's name does that mean?

00:35:04.418 --> 00:35:06.018
That is not a problem statement.

00:35:06.978 --> 00:35:15.168
What you mean is, we're responding way too late to data we're getting on market trends about how we need to actually, change our brand message.

00:35:15.378 --> 00:35:17.527
Okay, that's a, that's a point of view I can understand.

00:35:18.893 --> 00:35:23.882
I can even barely understand that, but I've heard somebody say that, but it's certainly a lot better than proactive, right?

00:35:23.882 --> 00:35:25.003
Cause nobody knows what you mean.

00:35:25.452 --> 00:35:27.943
And then data, why do you say that?

00:35:27.943 --> 00:35:29.543
I think we need to be more proactive.

00:35:30.182 --> 00:35:30.862
What's my data?

00:35:30.922 --> 00:35:32.793
because the teams are being too reactive.

00:35:32.913 --> 00:35:34.233
That doesn't help me at all.

00:35:34.492 --> 00:35:38.913
Tell me what it is we're actually doing or not doing that in your mind amounts to not being proactive.

00:35:39.083 --> 00:35:41.123
That's data and then compelling.

00:35:41.693 --> 00:35:44.873
And if we don't do that, we might miss an opportunity to grow our business.

00:35:45.432 --> 00:35:48.793
Come on, forget that corporate bullshit, man.

00:35:48.862 --> 00:35:52.663
If we don't do it, we're going to get our launch eat of our competitors.

00:35:52.952 --> 00:35:54.603
We're at 30 percent market share.

00:35:54.643 --> 00:35:59.762
I predict nine months from now, we're down to 10 and at least 30 percent of this team is hitting the streets.

00:36:01.202 --> 00:36:02.333
That's what I'm worried about.

00:36:02.842 --> 00:36:07.202
So you guys might disagree with me on it, but at least that's what's in my heart to share with you.

00:36:07.563 --> 00:36:08.382
Curiosity.

00:36:08.413 --> 00:36:08.623
Okay.

00:36:08.623 --> 00:36:09.572
What do you think about all that?

00:36:11.612 --> 00:36:17.443
And then people may have That will instigate a good reaction for people, right?

00:36:17.492 --> 00:36:17.913
Totally.

00:36:18.402 --> 00:36:21.152
And they go, you know, Louis, I disagree with you.

00:36:21.713 --> 00:36:22.172
Great.

00:36:22.943 --> 00:36:24.063
Seriously.

00:36:24.163 --> 00:36:24.652
Great.

00:36:24.943 --> 00:36:25.663
Why?

00:36:26.092 --> 00:36:26.413
Exactly.

00:36:27.512 --> 00:36:29.043
they may have different data.

00:36:29.222 --> 00:36:33.472
They may have the same data and a different conclusion from it, different point of view from it.

00:36:33.592 --> 00:36:39.373
And now we're trying to reconcile our differing perspectives on what's true.

00:36:40.112 --> 00:36:43.342
But then after you do that reconciliation, then we can align on what's true.

00:36:43.572 --> 00:36:44.742
And maybe it won't be.

00:36:45.043 --> 00:36:54.503
What you thought was true originally, but you talk to other people and through that dialogue and exchange with others, you come to a better understanding of what the real issues are.

00:36:54.663 --> 00:36:57.873
And then on that basis, we could do something about it.

00:36:58.623 --> 00:37:00.293
But we first have to create some common ground.

00:37:02.932 --> 00:37:08.202
Yeah, that's I actually can go on for a long time on this.

00:37:08.202 --> 00:37:13.112
I can see so many, as you're saying this, how this can be applied in a real world for us.

00:37:13.463 --> 00:37:21.432
But, I'm gonna stop it right there because this is actually a pretty deep philosophical conversation that I'd love to continue maybe at another time.

00:37:21.963 --> 00:37:27.342
So with that, I'd love to shift to, 4, if you don't mind.

00:37:28.052 --> 00:37:28.382
Yeah.

00:37:28.452 --> 00:37:28.672
Finally.

00:37:29.103 --> 00:37:29.443
All right.

00:37:29.623 --> 00:37:30.043
All right.

00:37:30.092 --> 00:37:33.992
So Todd, what, what is a hack that you use?

00:37:35.447 --> 00:37:40.728
This is just kind of like a shortcut you use every day to, you know, cheat.

00:37:40.737 --> 00:37:43.518
I'll give you a conversational hack that I think will be really useful to people.

00:37:43.838 --> 00:37:44.137
Thank you.

00:37:44.728 --> 00:37:49.688
So, and I, and I, I gave it, but not just before, but not so much in steps.

00:37:50.128 --> 00:38:04.887
So if you want to talk about something that's difficult to talk about, say, say something like, I want to share something with you and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

00:38:04.978 --> 00:38:06.097
Set the frame for it.

00:38:07.277 --> 00:38:09.257
And then three step process.

00:38:09.697 --> 00:38:19.038
Say your point of view, provide the data and reasoning that led you to that point of view, then step three, ask people what they think.

00:38:20.038 --> 00:38:27.277
I think X, I think X because Y, but Louie, what do you think about that?

00:38:28.498 --> 00:38:38.967
And if you hold on to that structure, particularly when maybe you feel like your emotions are getting the best of you, or you're really anxious.

00:38:39.612 --> 00:38:41.273
About how somebody is going to respond.

00:38:41.273 --> 00:38:45.802
If you do this three steps and you put that frame on top of it, you know, I want to share.

00:38:45.822 --> 00:38:48.262
I'm going to share with you something and get your reactions to it.

00:38:49.222 --> 00:38:56.072
It will dramatically increase the probability that people will receive the provocative thing.

00:38:56.083 --> 00:38:57.512
You're going to say.

00:38:59.112 --> 00:39:04.393
1st of all, you've told them you want their reactions to what you have to say.

00:39:04.777 --> 00:39:04.978
Yeah,

00:39:04.998 --> 00:39:12.108
so you're already kind of getting guard down because it's not like you're trying to make them think what you think you're telling people, I want to have a conversation about this.

00:39:12.108 --> 00:39:13.137
And maybe I'm wrong.

00:39:13.168 --> 00:39:19.297
I want to get your take on it, even all those, I want to share with you something that, you know, maybe I'm wrong about, but I want to get your take on it.

00:39:19.358 --> 00:39:21.498
And then boom, insert three step routine.

00:39:21.728 --> 00:39:31.177
And what's good about it is, then the person will be clear what you're saying, your point of view, they'll understand why you think what you think, that's step two, and then you're saying, but let's talk about it, you know, what do you think about it?

00:39:31.628 --> 00:39:56.027
And it turns it into a collaborative, it turns the conversation from, I'm trying to convince you of something, to, I'm trying to collaborate with you on figuring out what's true and that's ultimately what candor is A collaborative search for the truth on behalf of making things better not about me and getting your way So that's my hack my three step hack.

00:39:56.338 --> 00:39:56.998
I love that.

00:39:57.338 --> 00:40:05.378
You know, I think I I love how you started off With softening it up, but hey, I just want to share something with you and get your thoughts I think that's really good.

00:40:05.568 --> 00:40:24.007
and I say that only because I usually I tend to be pretty not think it through and just say what i'm thinking sometimes that you know and put it out there Right from the beginning, but when you soften it up with a statement like that first and then you have some good Data evidence behind it to support that and then that will allow me to

00:40:24.157 --> 00:40:29.507
be Stronger in the in the next three steps Because, right.

00:40:29.507 --> 00:40:36.123
Cause I don't want to soften the message, but I'm trying to get people's guards down and I'm trying to keep them totally.

00:40:36.123 --> 00:40:41.202
A mindset of, I'm not trying to soften it, although I can see that's the effect.

00:40:41.233 --> 00:40:47.512
I'm trying to create a tone where I want this to be a collaboration of figuring out well, what's true.

00:40:47.603 --> 00:40:47.932
Sure.

00:40:48.382 --> 00:41:02.103
I'm share you what I think is true, and I might be quite provocative, It doesn't stop you from being quite provocative, but it makes the provocative pill easier to swallow.

00:41:02.163 --> 00:41:02.432
Yeah.

00:41:02.523 --> 00:41:05.702
It's like, Hey, and I wanna share with you something that.

00:41:06.813 --> 00:41:09.873
I'm afraid it might rub you the wrong way, but I also might be wrong about it.

00:41:09.873 --> 00:41:11.492
So I just want to put it out there.

00:41:11.943 --> 00:41:23.333
You know, I think the way you're leading the team is actually hurting your credibility with the team and may cause some people, to actually, leave in the next six months.

00:41:24.063 --> 00:41:35.682
And the reason I say that is I've heard three people who have come to me who've said exactly that to me, and they said within the next week, they're going to be actively putting their resumes on the streets.

00:41:36.132 --> 00:41:36.253
And

00:41:36.253 --> 00:41:44.983
what they're complaining about is working around them and going directly to their people versus channeling those things for them.

00:41:45.273 --> 00:41:54.068
And then they, Get caught flatfoot in these conversations where there are people asking about things that they never even understood and they lose a lot of face with their folks.

00:41:54.117 --> 00:41:59.807
And this has been happening now, at least according to them, for at least six months and extremely frustrating.

00:42:00.217 --> 00:42:04.277
Again, I'm not watching how you're interacting with people, but that's what I'm hearing.

00:42:04.577 --> 00:42:06.077
You know, what's your reaction to that?

00:42:07.407 --> 00:42:10.657
So, you can say some hard truths, but you're creating an environment where.

00:42:11.552 --> 00:42:16.273
The truth potentially can still live and you could live to talk about even more importantly.

00:42:17.202 --> 00:42:17.913
I don't want any more

00:42:20.373 --> 00:42:21.233
Yeah, no, I know.

00:42:21.242 --> 00:42:46.538
Okay, and I think you also have to be really I think you're right on man, and I think that like your last point about just asking for thought I think it's really important to be genuine when you're asking for feedback too, right, because I think sometimes people use that, again, maybe, I keep going back to saying softening it up, but, and maybe that's the wrong word, but people do use that to, and, and they aren't really curious.

00:42:46.597 --> 00:42:52.076
They really were using that methodology to still almost lead and prove their point, but they aren't.

00:42:52.076 --> 00:42:53.581
prove their point and get what they want.

00:42:53.780 --> 00:42:54.130
Right,

00:42:55.780 --> 00:42:57.911
Sometimes you gotta force yourself.

00:42:58.090 --> 00:43:01.110
You have to behave yourself into a new way of being.

00:43:01.900 --> 00:43:04.891
So sometimes I'll talk to my team and I'll feel they made an error.

00:43:05.141 --> 00:43:07.320
And I'm upset about it, right?

00:43:07.610 --> 00:43:09.501
And I'll say, listen, I think you made it here.

00:43:09.510 --> 00:43:11.650
I'm upset about it because here's what's happened.

00:43:12.851 --> 00:43:21.721
But then I also say, I push myself to say it, but there might be something that I did, or something that I'm missing here that explains it.

00:43:22.331 --> 00:43:23.451
So talk to me.

00:43:23.990 --> 00:43:45.521
And then, I don't know if it's nine times out of 10, but enough for it to be humiliating for me that I realized there was something I was missing, you know, and there was a piece of the puzzle or I didn't prioritize their work properly, or I gave them too much work or the way I set up the system contribute to all this, and even though I'm convinced I'm right.

00:43:46.630 --> 00:43:51.610
I forced myself to open myself up to being wrong, even though I don't want to.

00:43:51.940 --> 00:43:52.351
Because

00:43:52.351 --> 00:43:55.440
I'm not going to be subject to my emotions in this thing.

00:43:55.900 --> 00:43:58.690
I'm trying to be subject to my bigger commitments.

00:43:59.940 --> 00:44:02.931
And so you don't have to weight yourself, you don't have to weight to feel a certain way.

00:44:03.271 --> 00:44:05.380
Am I really curious in this situation, Louis?

00:44:05.731 --> 00:44:08.231
I'm not curious, I think I already got it figured out.

00:44:08.701 --> 00:44:12.831
But I'm committed to curiosity, and I'm going to force this.

00:44:13.231 --> 00:44:16.010
Small self to be bigger than that.

00:44:16.490 --> 00:44:16.791
Yeah.

00:44:17.791 --> 00:44:20.021
Well, Todd, how about a favorite?

00:44:20.471 --> 00:44:24.300
This could be a book, movie activity, you name it.

00:44:27.010 --> 00:44:28.541
favorite gosh.

00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:35.481
you know, I really like, the Lord of the Rings books.

00:44:35.570 --> 00:44:41.811
It's a huge paper and, oh, I should tell everybody this, so I have trouble sleeping.

00:44:41.840 --> 00:44:52.650
So what I do is, I listened to like a podcast at night and then I put the timer on 20 minutes and I usually fall asleep because it's like, it's almost like mom or dad telling a bedtime story.

00:44:53.101 --> 00:44:54.911
And there's this thing on Patrion.

00:44:55.141 --> 00:44:56.380
It's also on YouTube though.

00:44:56.920 --> 00:45:01.041
And there's this amazing guy, but his podcast is called down to sleep.

00:45:01.990 --> 00:45:05.360
So he reads the books, all kinds of books, right?

00:45:05.360 --> 00:45:06.061
This is just one of them.

00:45:06.190 --> 00:45:09.061
He reads, he's like, this guy has an amazing voice.

00:45:09.530 --> 00:45:15.360
And there's like the sound of light rainfall in the background, and man, it just puts me out.

00:45:15.530 --> 00:45:21.400
And you can set the timer also on Patreon so that, um, you know, you can do that for yourself.

00:45:21.400 --> 00:45:23.431
And it's better than video, so you don't see light.

00:45:23.501 --> 00:45:27.141
Light's bad for your sleeping, but if it's just sound, it's pretty cool.

00:45:27.590 --> 00:45:33.161
Now, and, you know, if you got somebody sleeping next to you, you probably gotta put one little earphone in.

00:45:33.516 --> 00:45:40.456
You know, maybe from when you're where you call these earbud things, but yeah, that's really something I've liked a lot.

00:45:42.206 --> 00:45:42.565
Okay.

00:45:42.565 --> 00:45:42.815
Down

00:45:42.945 --> 00:45:43.356
to sleep.

00:45:44.096 --> 00:45:44.275
Yeah.

00:45:44.275 --> 00:45:46.726
If you ever really tired, just listen to the wayfinder show.

00:45:46.726 --> 00:45:47.735
That'll put you to sleep by

00:45:47.735 --> 00:45:47.885
the way.

00:45:48.835 --> 00:45:56.286
Listen to this podcast on repeat, get a particular interview as much as possible while boring to death talking about conversations.

00:45:56.286 --> 00:45:56.846
No, no.

00:45:57.025 --> 00:45:57.556
That's very funny.

00:45:57.635 --> 00:45:58.175
I love that.

00:45:58.525 --> 00:46:00.876
how about a piece of advice for your younger self?

00:46:01.876 --> 00:46:02.715
be less afraid.

00:46:02.715 --> 00:46:02.766
Okay.

00:46:03.766 --> 00:46:20.536
and have faith that, the best that can happen to you in your life will be through expressing the truth of what you think, even if it doesn't feel that way in the short term.

00:46:21.536 --> 00:46:21.916
I love that.

00:46:22.916 --> 00:46:32.251
How about I'll let you choose for this last one between a limiting belief or a big opportunity.

00:46:35.141 --> 00:46:37.081
Like what's, what's the question though?

00:46:37.411 --> 00:46:38.710
What's my favorite limiting belief?

00:46:38.951 --> 00:46:43.001
No, what is a limiting belief and like how do you overcome it kind of thing?

00:46:43.010 --> 00:46:47.900
Or what is a big opportunity out there that either you're chasing or you just see out there in the world?

00:46:48.900 --> 00:46:51.471
I think one of the big limiting beliefs is they don't care.

00:46:52.471 --> 00:46:53.311
They don't care.

00:46:53.820 --> 00:46:54.070
They

00:46:54.081 --> 00:47:03.130
won't care because a lot of times I, you know, this whole thing I do about leadership and it's about raising the real issues with people around you in order to make things better.

00:47:04.601 --> 00:47:11.771
people ask me, yeah, but that'll work great if they actually already care and such a defeatist attitude.

00:47:11.771 --> 00:47:13.545
I'm like, your job is to make them care.

00:47:15.956 --> 00:47:52.275
Your job is to think about who these people are, what their lives are like, what they care about, what they find frustrating, and then connect all of that with This issue that you want to raise with them, but if you don't know what they care about, and you don't find a way to connect what you care about with that, then of course they don't care.

00:47:53.215 --> 00:47:56.735
most people haven't put the work in to know that.

00:47:57.346 --> 00:47:59.585
And it's, now sometimes it's true.

00:48:00.146 --> 00:48:02.396
These things are never one way or the other.

00:48:03.070 --> 00:48:24.601
But sometimes saying they won't care is a convenient way to take yourself off the hook from doing the work that's required to connect with people, we'll say, start caring and leadership is about mobilizing people to care about things more than they do and as much as they should, that's one.

00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:26.561
Yeah, no, that's a good one.

00:48:27.306 --> 00:48:32.585
And I, yeah, it was, I didn't understand it at first, but I think you explained it really well.

00:48:32.585 --> 00:48:40.226
And I would almost argue that a big opportunity there is, is actually to connect with your people so that you understand what

00:48:40.835 --> 00:48:42.266
connect with people around you.

00:48:42.516 --> 00:48:42.896
Yeah.

00:48:43.246 --> 00:48:59.365
No, I'm trying to think there are lots of examples of this, but you know, I mean, I was talking to a guy well over 10 years ago and he had a pretty rough leadership style.

00:49:00.541 --> 00:49:05.800
and it was so rough that the people in this company used to call him Darth Vader.

00:49:07.340 --> 00:49:14.360
And he didn't do himself any favors because he used to wear during the winter, this long black leather coat.

00:49:15.300 --> 00:49:17.510
I was like, you know, people already call you Darth Vader.

00:49:17.510 --> 00:49:19.291
He goes, this is just reinforcing the image.

00:49:19.300 --> 00:49:21.170
He goes, I don't, I think it's quite funny.

00:49:21.391 --> 00:49:22.251
Like, all right.

00:49:23.291 --> 00:49:23.820
But then.

00:49:24.465 --> 00:49:28.826
I got wind that he was going to, be pulled in front of a union grievance committee for the third time.

00:49:29.885 --> 00:49:46.326
So the voice that I left with him is, listen, I know you don't care about your kind of more rough leadership style, but the things I'm hearing right now lead me to conclude that if you don't, if you don't clean this, if you don't alter your behavior, you're going to get pulled in front of union grievance committee for the third time.

00:49:46.545 --> 00:49:48.596
And that means you will be fired.

00:49:50.016 --> 00:49:50.826
Let's talk about it.

00:49:51.675 --> 00:49:54.856
I knew he cared about being fired in this case.

00:49:55.320 --> 00:49:57.490
at that moment, it was very important for him to keep his job.

00:49:58.280 --> 00:50:00.460
So I spoke into his listening.

00:50:01.641 --> 00:50:07.181
And the way I would deliver that message to him versus somebody else can vary depending upon what they care about.

00:50:08.081 --> 00:50:11.831
if he cared about a certain project getting to the finish line, then I would have connected it to that.

00:50:12.411 --> 00:50:15.530
If he cared about his credibility, then I would have connected it to that.

00:50:16.530 --> 00:50:18.280
People address things for their own reasons.

00:50:18.780 --> 00:50:21.891
You gotta, Simon Sinek, you gotta understand their why.

00:50:22.490 --> 00:50:23.731
And then make that connection.

00:50:23.990 --> 00:50:24.451
That's right.

00:50:27.371 --> 00:50:33.800
Well, Todd, if folks want to know a little bit more about you, maybe they'll look to work with you for their organizations.

00:50:33.971 --> 00:50:35.311
How can they find you?

00:50:36.271 --> 00:50:36.701
Okay.

00:50:37.110 --> 00:50:38.710
well, there's a great person on my team.

00:50:38.731 --> 00:50:39.610
Her name is Lace.

00:50:40.041 --> 00:50:47.721
And they could just email LACE, and, so it's LACE, L A C E, at Holzman Leadership.

00:50:48.260 --> 00:50:53.141
So that's H O L Z M A N Leadership dot com.

00:50:54.201 --> 00:51:06.056
And just put in the subject line, I guess, say, Wayfinder, Wayfinder, It's a great name, by the way, and just signify what you want.

00:51:06.096 --> 00:51:12.865
If you want some free Canada resources, which we've pulled together for folks, that just say, send me free candor stuff.

00:51:13.496 --> 00:51:16.735
If you want to talk, just say that in the subject line.

00:51:18.126 --> 00:51:19.106
And they will go from there.

00:51:20.115 --> 00:51:21.445
Well, thank you so much, Todd.

00:51:21.456 --> 00:51:23.565
This has been a really interesting conversation.

00:51:23.646 --> 00:51:27.726
you brought up some deep topics that, you know, I don't usually get into on the show.

00:51:28.186 --> 00:51:34.215
And, it's made me think maybe we need to have an even longer form, podcast for conversations like these.

00:51:34.465 --> 00:51:35.115
I'm more into

00:51:35.115 --> 00:51:36.916
these podcasts that I've had.

00:51:37.005 --> 00:51:38.036
We got to the same point.

00:51:38.065 --> 00:51:39.036
We're just having another call.

00:51:40.001 --> 00:51:44.900
I'm happy to, when you, when you have a slot and you have some interest to, to keep it going.

00:51:46.331 --> 00:51:47.081
Thank you so much.

00:51:47.940 --> 00:51:48.231
All right.

00:51:48.240 --> 00:51:48.360
My

00:51:48.360 --> 00:51:48.630
pleasure.

00:51:48.630 --> 00:51:49.201
Thank you.

00:51:49.201 --> 00:51:49.681
Appreciate it.

00:51:49.681 --> 00:51:52.521
And this was helpful to everybody in the audience.

00:51:52.521 --> 00:51:53.570
So good luck everyone.

00:51:54.170 --> 00:51:54.451
Thank you.

00:52:00.012 --> 00:52:01.771
We hope you've enjoyed The Wayfinder Show.

00:52:01.922 --> 00:52:06.141
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00:52:06.431 --> 00:52:10.681
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00:52:11.342 --> 00:52:12.641
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