Building Billion-Dollar Franchises with John Hewitt

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If on Monday morning, you're going to work, you're not looking forward to it.

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You're going the wrong place.

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If you're living a life of thank God it's Friday, you're in the wrong place.

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Welcome to The Wayfinder Show with Luis Hernandez, where guests discuss the why and how of making changes that led them down a more authentic path or allow them to level up in some area of their life.

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Our goal is to dig deep and provide not only knowledge, but actionable advice to help you get from where you are to where you want to be.

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Come join us and find the way to your dream life.

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Welcome back to the way finder show.

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I'm your host louis hernandez And today we have the privilege to have an american business legend with us by the name of john hewitt You might recognize his name as the hewitt of jackson hewitt.

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He's also founded another iconic tax business liberty tax service He is now the CEO of Loyalty Brands, which is a franchise platform aimed at helping entrepreneurs succeed across industries like tax services, insurance, business brokerages, and much more.

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He continues to expand his franchise empire by focusing on empowering business owners to achieve financial success.

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John has also chronicled his journey in a book titled, I compete, how my extraordinary strategy for winning can be yours, where he shares his insights and strategies for building and leading successful franchises.

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John, welcome to the Wayfinder show.

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Louie, it's my pleasure.

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Thank you.

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John, so let's start.

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it's really an honor to be here.

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we both share one thing in common, which is that we both.

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Worked for H& R Block as tax pros at one point in our lives.

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As they have millions of others.

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Yeah.

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I mean, they have a great training program if you really want to learn taxes and do that kind of thing.

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They, that's the thing they do best.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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So tell us about how you went from there to starting their biggest competitor, for a while and, and, and then another one and another one.

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Yeah.

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I've been at Block for 12 years, loving my job and loving life.

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And I was 30 years old.

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My dad was a visionary and he was a CEO of a public company.

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And he bought one of the first Apple computers by mail, in a world where there, long before you can remember where there were no, there were only.

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Less than a hundred or less than a million, desktop computers in the whole world.

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And, and he liked the little Apple that he bought by mail better than the mainframe that was running his public company.

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So he decided we should computerize taxes.

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So he convinced me to leave my job.

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And in 1981, we built the first tech software for an Apple computer.

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No one wanted it way ahead of its time, got blessed and found a company in Virginia beach called Mel Jackson tech service.

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Uh, the blessing was that the weather here is a lot nicer than Buffalo, where I grew up.

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So I've been here for 42 years and we merged the computer company with Mel Jackson.

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We changed the name to Jackson Hewitt.

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We went public and 15 years later we sold it for 483 million.

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So that was my first venture.

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And Jackson Hewitt went on to become a billion dollar company.

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So I'm one of less than 9, 000 people.

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In the United States that founded a billion dollar company.

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And I had a non compete that lasted three years and, we opened Liberty tax in Canada because Jackson Hewitt wasn't ever in Canada.

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So my non compete did not cover Canada.

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So we opened Liberty tax and we quickly became one of the top 100 retail chains.

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So now I founded one of the top 100 retail franchise chains in the United States, one in Canada.

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When my non compete ended in 2000, I came back to the United States and competed with my own name, my own software, my own people at Jackson Hewitt.

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And not only did we grow faster than Jackson Hewitt, we grew faster than them and H& R Block combined.

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We opened 4, 000 offices in 12 years, almost an office a day.

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My second company that was a public company worth 500 million, a second company that I sold, and then I started loyalty brands and loyalty brands has.

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Unlike Jackson Hewitt and Liberty where I focus on one brand, we have eight different brands and we have three different focuses.

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We have tax and accounting, just like I've been in for 55 years.

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We've had construction led by our roofing division.

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and siding and solar.

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the fastest growing by far though is zoom in grooming, mobile pet grooming.

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we're already in three years.

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We're already number one in the country and most, most location or most vans and locations.

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And.

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We're gonna have over 3000 bands in five years.

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We're gonna be a my third household name after Jackson Hewitt Liberty Tax, and now it'll be Zoom and grooming, mobile grooming.

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It's that, it's, that's my 55 years in a nutshell.

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Nice.

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Let, let's backtrack a little bit'cause it, there's a lot that came up there.

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I'm curious, first of all, your father to be that visionary.

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With the computer.

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was he already practicing, tax accounting?

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He never was a tax accountant.

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He, he was an accountant.

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Okay.

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And he got his MBA in and in accounting, but he, he was never a tax pro.

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I see.

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But I was, so I, he, he, he got me to take the HR Block course.

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I loved it.

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And the most interesting course I've ever taken, and so it was in our constant discussions of H& R Block and the industry over the years that he, he, and his purchase of the Apple computer, that combination, it clicked, and he decided that, that we should incorporate the two.

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Okay.

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So I'm curious, did you, when you bought the Mel Jackson, offices and you, you know, developed a new brand, was the intent from the beginning to go head on with H& R Block or?

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Yeah, I said, I believe.

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In setting big, hairy, audacious goals.

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So in my business plan in 1982, when we raised, we raised 129,000.

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and remember 15 years later, sold it for 483 million.

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But in my business plan it was to have one more office than HR Block.

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HR Block had 9,000 and we had six.

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So we had to open 8,995 offices.

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We ne we never got there.

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We got.

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Jacksonville got up to 6, 000, but it became a billion dollar company.

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So I think we did all right for ourselves.

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Yeah, you did.

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All right.

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So then what, what did you, did you start with the franchise model right away or what, how did.

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No, the, the, I did at H& R Block.

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H& R Block was when I started was 95% And one of the biggest mistakes I ever made in my career, and certainly at Jackson Hewitt, was I didn't start franchising right away.

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And as a result, we bought six offices, and two and a half years later, we had 22 offices.

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But, I realized that if we were going To grow at that pace to get to 9, 000.

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I'd be about a thousand years old by the time we got there.

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So we immediately started franchising, after three years.

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It took me three years to really understand that the only way to grow exponentially quickly is to franchise.

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Okay.

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So, what did you see that was going to allow you to be different from H& R Block to Jackson Hewitt and then Jackson Hewitt to, They were both different, different times and different, different opportunities.

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First of all, it was slam dunk.

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We were the only computerized tax business in the country.

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And so our computer, our computers put us ahead of, everyone else gave us a competitive advantage, and it was based on we came up with decision tree software.

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So, for example, if someone had a rental home, then we would ask them very in depth questions that a typical repair would miss out on.

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So, for example, a a unusual one.

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expense in a rental, if you own a rental property is mileage back and forth to pick up rents, do repairs, show the property.

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And so that's often missed on a tax return.

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Well, it was never missed on our software because if you had that, then you were asked about.

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another common thing that was missed is if you had charitable deductions, then most people just think of cash and checks.

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Well, what about if mileage driving your car?

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If you're an officer in a charitable organization, if you're a, you're on a committee at the church, you're on the finance committee, you get to deduct mileage and most preparers don't ask those questions.

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So our software made a very brand new preparer look like an expert.

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and perform like an expert.

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So it was a huge competitive advantage.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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That makes sense.

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What about from there to Liberty?

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Yeah.

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So now when we started, that was in 1982.

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And so 18 years later, everyone had computer software.

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So now that wasn't a, there was, that was a routine in the industry.

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So I had read a book called guerrilla marketing just before I left.

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I left, Jackson Hewitt and I started implementing it, but as soon as I left, they got rid of it.

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So, the most iconic, easiest thing to think of guerrilla marketing is our lady Liberty waivers outside the office.

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they would dance outside the office.

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in a typical territory competing with H& R block, there's about 3000 businesses.

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Including about 10 competitors.

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Now everyone's trying to get your attention.

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They were doing radio or TV or newspaper or yell pages or direct mail.

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how many businesses do you see that have a costume character from January 1st to April 15 out in the street, dancing and catching your attention?

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It set us apart.

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And that's just one example of grill marketing.

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Business to business with our Lady Liberty would go in and doughnuts and cookies and gifts.

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We would have roadside parties.

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where, we would cook out, we'd have hot dogs and hamburgers and soda and passerbys to get a quick meal and get attention.

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So we got attention in the community by guerrilla marketing really set us apart.

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Yeah, that's really interesting.

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Cause as we talked before we started, I was a manager for H& R block and then became block advisors and a H& R block, I was allowed to do more of that creative.

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Marketing, and that's what I would usually do, is things like get sign spinners outside.

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Right, exactly.

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And, yeah, hang out outside the bus stops and just kind Talk to people, and I found that to be incredibly effective, much more so than ads.

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Exactly.

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Anyone can do an ad.

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Anyone and everyone can do an ad.

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for example, let's say you're using internet and you buy keywords.

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And one of the phrases you buy is income tax.

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Well, guess who's bidding against you?

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TurboTax, H& R Block, I mean, just everyone, Jackson Hewitt, everyone's bidding on that.

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So everyone's in the same pool.

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Whoever has the most money wins.

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But not only were we different from the, the companies in our industry, we were unique in almost any industry.

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in Denver, there couldn't have been three companies back then that when we started that had that costume dancing figures out in the street, so it's you have to have differentiators, if David had gone on to the field with the same sword and shield and armor is Goliath, there wouldn't be a David Goliath story, he'd be the 364th guy killed by Goliath.

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that's interesting.

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So in the first one, you had an innovation in the sense that we normally think about with just a better technology.

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The second time around, your innovation wasn't what we think about.

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It's just a different way of marketing what was already your service there, right?

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Than what others were doing.

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And it still works.

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Right.

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The point isn't that it has to be typical or usual, but you have to have differentiators.

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That's right.

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So now you have a new tax business as part of Loyalty Brands, right?

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A Tax.

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What are you doing differently there?

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Well, we've expanded guerrilla marketing into, there's two things that we do that are, that are significantly better.

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One is we've expanded our guerrilla marketing into things like calling customers.

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That we're worthy of about the only company in America.

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That calls our customers and ask them how we did for them.

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And the, it results in huge benefits.

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Number one is our customers love to be called.

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No one else is calling them in any industry.

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They're emailing them.

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They're, they're handing them a card to fill out their, their mail, mailing them surveys, but no one's calling.

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And so it helps with our retention dramatically.

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And, and you've been with block.

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I don't know.

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How long you were there or how many people you managed, but my experience in this industry, in that industry is that less than 10% of the preparers did a good job of asking for a referral.

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So now you call the customer how we do.

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Wonderful.

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Had a great experience and you have this very personable person asking for a referral.

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So the referrals go up 50% retention goes up 10%.

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And you find out if anything's going wrong because Louie, it doesn't matter.

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If you are, I think we're doing a good job.

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It only matters if they think we're doing a good job, the customer pays all of our bills.

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And so we got to take the pulse of the customer.

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So that's one of the things we do different our system, for example, we have about a dozen things that we do better like calling customers than anyone else.

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But another thing we do is, Were we look for opportunities in the hispanic market.

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you're in Denver, Denver is our, our third most, effective, effective, market.

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And, I don't know if the average listener would understand there's a good Spanish, community, Hispanic community in Denver, and there's only 25 percent of the population.

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Is it?

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It's, it's everywhere in the country.

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And that's the one unusual thing about Hispanics that versus Germans or Italians or Africans or Chinese, or, I mean, they go everywhere and other, other nationalities tend to.

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Portuguese are in in Massachusetts, right?

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And the Italians started in New York.

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And I mean, they go to different, and they don't go all over, but Hispanics are everywhere.

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Now, the beauty of the Hispanic industry is it's growing by leaps and bounds.

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I just saw that the gross national product of Hispanics in this country, for the first time, they have a 7 trillion economy.

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And they would be the, if you took it apart, it would be the fifth largest economy in the world, bigger than France and Germany and Great Britain and Russia, and they're growing by seven or 8 percent a year now, same with population in the United States.

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If you go Hispanic.

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and Asian, those are the only two parts of the U.

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S.

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population that's growing.

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The, the whites and blacks are actually small decline, 1 percent decline.

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So in H& R Block and Jackson Hewitt and Liberty are not good at going after Hispanics.

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And they're all fighting for the non Hispanic customer base, which is declining by about 1%.

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So I said, and there's, they're like saying, Oh, John, John Hewitt, you can have the Hispanic market.

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We're not good at it.

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So we're, we're after a market that's growing by 7 or 8 percent and with little competition, with no national competition, and they are fighting, tooth and nail for the declining market.

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I say, thank you.

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I feel like sending H& R Block a thank you card every day.

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you clearly seem to have a knack for Finding upcoming trends, right?

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From the latest technology to guerrilla marketing to now the niches, niches, niche markets.

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how do you approach that?

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tell me, unravel what goes through your head as you're finding these trends.

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Well, first of all, I start out with the concept that I'm a, I'm a poor loser.

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I'm a huge competitor and I'm going to win.

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Right?

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So I need to look at what your weakness is, right?

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And what the opportunities are that you're missing.

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And so in all of my industries, I'm looking for, I'm looking at the biggest players, the brand, the biggest brand names, and then figuring out, well, what can I do a little bit better or a little bit different?

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There was, for example, there was a car dealer.

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One of the things we do is expand our hours during peak.

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And I read a book a long time ago, and I don't remember the book, but it was by a, Automobile dealer in Dallas, Texas.

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And it was, it was a great book about how he grew his market share.

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And so he was just, just a normal, you know, top 50 auto dealer in Dallas.

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So he did the right thing.

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He went to, that is one of the things you need to do if you wanna be great.

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Every, he went to his.

00:18:55.130 --> 00:18:57.890
customers and said, How can we do a better job?

00:18:58.339 --> 00:19:00.299
Now it wasn't calling them like I do.

00:19:00.309 --> 00:19:01.460
It was in mail service.

00:19:03.630 --> 00:19:08.180
And they said, expand your customer service hours.

00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:11.299
So everyone back then was nine to five Monday through Friday.

00:19:11.900 --> 00:19:17.140
So expanded the open at eight and that and, and close that six.

00:19:17.690 --> 00:19:19.450
So Monday through Friday, eight to six.

00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:25.619
So he went back six months later and said, how can we improve our service to you?

00:19:25.930 --> 00:19:28.609
And they said, expand your customer service out.

00:19:29.230 --> 00:19:34.109
So he opened on Saturday and then he went back again and they said the same thing.

00:19:34.430 --> 00:19:38.589
Then he opened one night a week, and then two nights a week, and then a.

00:19:38.589 --> 00:19:38.839
m.

00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:39.670
to 8 p.

00:19:39.670 --> 00:19:39.930
m.

00:19:39.930 --> 00:20:00.329
and, and all day Saturday, and he eventually became the biggest car dealer in Dallas, and to prove the point, there were three other auto dealers that began copying him and expanding out, the rest just were complacent and didn't pay attention, and all three of the others became the second, third, fourth.

00:20:01.125 --> 00:20:04.105
And fourth largest automobile dealers in Detroit.

00:20:04.365 --> 00:20:08.025
And it was simply by listening to your customers and expanding your routes.

00:20:08.295 --> 00:20:13.845
So in our, in the tax season, we have four very busy weeks out of 15.

00:20:13.875 --> 00:20:17.484
People think of it as a three and a half month business.

00:20:17.644 --> 00:20:19.055
It's just a four week business.

00:20:19.355 --> 00:20:22.914
And so during those four weeks, we expand our hours.

00:20:23.474 --> 00:20:31.924
I love it at five after nine, someone knocks on the door of it, H& R Block, and they want their tax return done because they locked their door at nine o'clock.

00:20:32.410 --> 00:20:34.390
And they just, they didn't get out of their seat.

00:20:34.410 --> 00:20:35.910
They wave them, come back tomorrow.

00:20:36.450 --> 00:20:38.420
Well, what would you do if you own the business?

00:20:38.680 --> 00:20:40.849
You would open that door and let that customer in.

00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:44.930
So things like that set us apart in all of our industries.

00:20:44.930 --> 00:20:53.069
We look for weaknesses and opportunities, but it starts with listening to customers and also reading that book.

00:20:53.500 --> 00:20:55.009
You know, I read the gorilla marketing book.

00:20:55.339 --> 00:20:58.859
I read the book by the, um, the, uh, auto dealer.

00:20:59.150 --> 00:21:02.690
I'm a voracious reader and voracious student of business.

00:21:02.914 --> 00:21:12.255
And Sam Walton said in Made in America, in his book, you just don't learn from businesses and experiences in your own industry.

00:21:12.535 --> 00:21:17.654
you have to examine every customer service expectation and learn from them.

00:21:17.654 --> 00:21:21.694
And so I'm a student of business and I'm a fanatical competitor.

00:21:21.944 --> 00:21:30.035
So I'm always looking for an edge, always looking to learn so I can point out an objective thing that I do better than my competitor.

00:21:31.055 --> 00:21:31.375
Yeah.

00:21:32.130 --> 00:21:32.839
that's interesting.

00:21:32.839 --> 00:21:40.549
So you start out by looking at basically your biggest competitor, what's their weakness, and then how are you going to beat them on that weakness.

00:21:41.220 --> 00:21:41.660
Exactly.

00:21:42.569 --> 00:21:48.539
I'm curious as to now, so now with loyalty brands, you have, I think I counted eight brands you have there?

00:21:48.569 --> 00:21:48.599
Yep.

00:21:49.384 --> 00:21:49.855
Yes.

00:21:50.714 --> 00:21:53.914
And you mentioned, Zuman Grumman is your fastest growing one.

00:21:54.164 --> 00:21:58.634
How did you decide on which industries to go into?

00:22:00.575 --> 00:22:01.894
Mostly by hook or by crook.

00:22:02.535 --> 00:22:09.484
I mean, we didn't sit down and before we started and say, these are the industry we want.

00:22:09.974 --> 00:22:10.154
Okay.

00:22:10.204 --> 00:22:11.765
we did it in a reverse way.

00:22:11.765 --> 00:22:12.505
Probably.

00:22:13.400 --> 00:22:15.880
Less effective way to do it.

00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:33.670
not, we didn't do it in the smartest way, but what we did is businesses came to us and said, we'd like to join loyalty and be part of the, the concept, the cross marketing and the, stable of franchise.

00:22:34.029 --> 00:22:36.779
And so we looked at, okay, do you have a viable model?

00:22:37.694 --> 00:22:39.525
Is it in an industry that's growing?

00:22:40.164 --> 00:22:41.365
Is it replicable?

00:22:41.894 --> 00:22:55.234
Can you get, and when you say replico, replico also means not only can you copy it, but you don't need to be a PhD, or an MBA, or because I brought in 5200 franchisees in my career.

00:22:55.625 --> 00:23:02.795
There's some, few PhDs and a few janitors and a lot in between.

00:23:03.045 --> 00:23:29.220
you have to have a viable business concept that can be run by a fairly average or above average person that doesn't require advanced education, that doesn't require advanced intellect, that it's not the smartest person in the room or The most experienced or the most educated, but what it is, is my job is to give you the best system in the industry.

00:23:29.500 --> 00:23:31.170
I've done that for my entire career.

00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:33.789
If I do my job, your job is to replicate that.

00:23:34.130 --> 00:23:36.220
And Louie, you would think that would be automatic.

00:23:36.529 --> 00:23:38.900
I've been doing this 55 years long before you were thought of.

00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:40.299
No one listens.

00:23:40.299 --> 00:23:44.460
Out of the 5, 200 people I brought in, not one listens 100%.

00:23:44.549 --> 00:23:48.630
And I can promise you, if you don't listen to me, it's going to cost you time or money or both.

00:23:49.019 --> 00:23:51.049
Everything that I give you is proven.

00:23:51.869 --> 00:23:56.640
It's proven and made every mistake you could ever make.

00:23:57.069 --> 00:24:00.839
They said people who have made the, are the most successful have made the most mistakes.

00:24:01.210 --> 00:24:03.640
so I made more mistakes than probably anyone you know.

00:24:05.750 --> 00:24:10.630
Yeah, you know, it's, I think, in human nature to all of us think that we're smarter than we are.

00:24:10.670 --> 00:24:16.470
And, we don't challenge, you know, we, we always challenge something within a system that, Work so well.

00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:16.759
Right.

00:24:16.789 --> 00:24:23.759
And we think we can do it better, even though clearly either one of us would listen to ourselves.

00:24:23.809 --> 00:24:24.619
A hundred percent.

00:24:26.089 --> 00:24:28.920
I'm a total rebel, I don't listen to anything.

00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:31.230
I've always been outside the box.

00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:39.190
so basically your company now is more like a holding company of franchises for somebody who has a good.

00:24:39.694 --> 00:24:40.654
Business model.

00:24:40.694 --> 00:24:44.974
They think, hey, I think this would make a great franchise model for expansion.

00:24:44.984 --> 00:24:50.484
They'll come to you and partner with you to implement it as a franchise and expand.

00:24:51.164 --> 00:24:52.674
Is that kind of how it works or?

00:24:53.535 --> 00:24:54.164
Exactly.

00:24:54.164 --> 00:25:02.000
Over the last month I had, a breakfast Concept come to us, but that has five or six locations doing extremely well.

00:25:02.299 --> 00:25:03.970
Also had an interesting one.

00:25:03.970 --> 00:25:20.309
That was one of my former Liberty franchises who he started a roadside service, you know, in competition to AAA and one differentiator he's going to do that no one's doing yet is charging.

00:25:20.619 --> 00:25:25.289
Electric vehicles apparently that's not industry standard yet.

00:25:25.779 --> 00:25:27.650
So that's going to give him a competitive advantage.

00:25:28.220 --> 00:25:28.579
Yeah.

00:25:29.190 --> 00:25:29.410
Yeah.

00:25:29.410 --> 00:25:32.490
I think we're in a time that is ripe for disruption, right?

00:25:32.490 --> 00:25:37.390
With things such as EVs and solar AI and all of that.

00:25:37.390 --> 00:25:41.509
I mean, we're just going to see all new business models being born, now, right?

00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:41.539
Yeah.

00:25:42.039 --> 00:25:46.740
AI is going to kill, kill jobs, but it's also going to create opportunity.

00:25:47.109 --> 00:25:49.809
So where is some of that opportunity with AI?

00:25:51.190 --> 00:25:52.230
I'm not an expert in that.

00:25:52.400 --> 00:26:00.079
So I can answer a lot of questions, but, if I'm not an expert in it, I'll tell you, I am not an expert in AI.

00:26:00.660 --> 00:26:02.279
I watch take the pulse of it.

00:26:02.549 --> 00:26:33.499
I watch my competitors but I haven't, thought broadly or thoughtfully on how to implement AI yet in the world and end up in what my, from my observation, which is not a expert observation, my observation is no one's going to It's really monetizing it well, it seems to have huge advantages, but I haven't seen anyone have huge profits yet from it, except for people like Nvidia that's selling chips.

00:26:33.739 --> 00:26:38.618
Those are the, today, those are the ones that are making money, not anyone that's using those chips yet.

00:26:38.788 --> 00:26:46.148
So in probably two or three years, I can answer that question better, but I don't have any skill in that, in that answer.

00:26:47.058 --> 00:26:48.068
Yeah, okay.

00:26:48.298 --> 00:26:51.199
Well, let's go back to franchises.

00:26:51.499 --> 00:26:52.348
What do you think?

00:26:52.398 --> 00:27:07.169
you know, i've got a little bit of experience, selling services to what we call zors and zs Right the franchisors I I helped a startup get going with them at one point, in accounting bookkeeping actually But I wonder what from your perspective what makes it successful?

00:27:07.749 --> 00:27:15.134
Let's start with disease the franchisees Yeah, it's, as I said, it, it comes down to, I, I brought it.

00:27:18.794 --> 00:27:21.084
So it sounds so simple, right?

00:27:21.124 --> 00:27:22.074
It sounds simple.

00:27:22.384 --> 00:27:23.094
And yet it is.

00:27:23.153 --> 00:27:23.824
It's impossible.

00:27:24.213 --> 00:27:26.804
And that is, again, I've learned in 5, 200 people.

00:27:26.993 --> 00:27:27.663
It doesn't work.

00:27:27.683 --> 00:27:31.594
It doesn't matter if you're how smart you are, how educated you are, how experienced you are.

00:27:31.794 --> 00:27:33.963
All that matters is if you follow the recipe.

00:27:34.364 --> 00:27:40.243
And so the people that follow the recipe, 98 or 99%, I've created a thousand winners.

00:27:40.703 --> 00:27:44.933
The people that follow it less than 90%, I've also had a thousand people fail.

00:27:46.784 --> 00:27:52.713
So if you can imagine, think of the difference between becoming a millionaire and failing it.

00:27:52.713 --> 00:28:00.554
And it's, it's just the, the percentage of time you're going to listen to the proven model.

00:28:01.933 --> 00:28:02.173
Okay.

00:28:02.173 --> 00:28:07.689
Then what about, the, the opposite, the z that franchisor, what makes them successful?

00:28:09.338 --> 00:28:19.078
Yeah, and you have to be careful with franchisors because most franchisors fail and people don't think about that.

00:28:19.078 --> 00:28:19.470
They think about.

00:28:20.358 --> 00:28:26.199
The Jackson Hewitts and the Liberty taxes and the zoom and Grimman and the McDonald's and Burger Kings.

00:28:26.199 --> 00:28:30.429
And they think about the winners subways and they don't think about the losers.

00:28:30.429 --> 00:28:45.429
Well, what happens, Louie is that I've seen in my, I didn't know this until we started loyalty brands and we began being approached by mom and pop businesses that wanted to franchise is their business.

00:28:46.138 --> 00:28:56.989
And What I've learned is that the reason they fail is they, when you take this mom and pop, who has a very successful business, and it could be a restaurant, it could be any kind of business.

00:28:57.509 --> 00:29:01.628
And now they're making two, three, 400, 000 a year.

00:29:01.949 --> 00:29:04.398
They're very good at that, running that one business.

00:29:04.759 --> 00:29:09.489
And their friends and themselves sometimes think I could go national with this.

00:29:09.489 --> 00:29:11.909
I could really cash in on this.

00:29:11.959 --> 00:29:16.239
And people start saying, you should franchise or I'd like to own one of these businesses.

00:29:16.239 --> 00:29:17.648
You're just, this is a gold mine.

00:29:18.019 --> 00:29:25.989
And so you get kind of full of yourself and you go out and you spend 200,000 or$300,000 and become a franchisor.

00:29:26.469 --> 00:29:28.199
Well, now there's two problems.

00:29:28.199 --> 00:29:33.759
One is a smaller problem, and that is, well, I'm pretty comfortable making all the money.

00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:38.499
I'm making 300,000 a year from my business, and, I need that to live on.

00:29:41.864 --> 00:29:44.554
And now I have this whole new business.

00:29:44.564 --> 00:29:47.394
So I have a foot in both camps, right?

00:29:47.394 --> 00:29:51.713
I'm not fully focused on franchising because I'm still running my mom and pop business.

00:29:51.713 --> 00:29:56.183
I still need that 300, 000 a year cashflow to live on.

00:29:56.243 --> 00:30:00.653
And the franchisors don't make money until about three to five years.

00:30:01.183 --> 00:30:04.804
McDonald's didn't make money from royalties until eight years later.

00:30:05.453 --> 00:30:06.794
I'm not going to make money from that.

00:30:06.844 --> 00:30:08.453
And yet I'm going to spend time on it.

00:30:08.814 --> 00:30:11.413
So the first problem is they're not fully focused.

00:30:12.034 --> 00:30:19.144
The second problem is they're not good at running a franchise system is far different than having employees.

00:30:19.933 --> 00:30:24.973
A franchisee is an independent contract and incredibly demanding.

00:30:25.489 --> 00:30:36.538
Incredibly, selfish, if you will, and rightfully so, I mean, they pay you to give them a system and support and be a great partner.

00:30:37.229 --> 00:30:46.449
you haven't fully developed a system that's going to go national or regional or, is fully developed and thoughtfully developed.

00:30:46.709 --> 00:30:52.098
You're building it on their money, on their dime, and, they're the guinea pigs.

00:30:52.368 --> 00:30:54.388
they're learning and you're improving the system.

00:30:54.699 --> 00:30:57.388
and they need special handling because they're not an employee.

00:30:58.038 --> 00:31:00.259
They're an independent contractor, and they're a partner.

00:31:00.489 --> 00:31:02.648
So they have several relationships with you.

00:31:02.648 --> 00:31:03.628
They're a customer.

00:31:03.929 --> 00:31:04.878
They're a partner.

00:31:05.219 --> 00:31:07.608
I mean, in some ways, it's like herding cats.

00:31:08.028 --> 00:31:12.419
And it takes a special skill to handle a franchise chain.

00:31:12.818 --> 00:31:14.578
Fortunately, I developed that myself.

00:31:14.578 --> 00:31:17.101
I brought in over 5, 200.

00:31:17.461 --> 00:31:22.425
And the most I had at one time was 2000.

00:31:22.766 --> 00:31:28.405
We had a great culture that not everyone's going to fit in that culture, but overall, it's an incredibly positive culture.

00:31:28.705 --> 00:31:41.286
And the biggest problem is that most franchisors don't understand the only way you're going to be successful is if you have happy, successful franchisees and they all build it for themselves.

00:31:41.836 --> 00:31:44.046
And their attorneys guide them to build it for themselves.

00:31:44.326 --> 00:31:50.915
So franchisors that start think happy successful me, happy, successful franchise or me.

00:31:51.266 --> 00:31:56.645
And if you don't have happy, successful franchisees, you can't grow and you will fail.

00:31:56.836 --> 00:32:07.086
And 80 percent of startups every year, there are 500 to 600 new franchise concepts in the United States every year for the last decade.

00:32:07.445 --> 00:32:08.786
And 80 percent of them fail.

00:32:10.195 --> 00:32:15.895
So can you identify with your experience right away when you look at a new franchise, which one's going to make it and which one's not?

00:32:16.605 --> 00:32:17.385
I wish I could.

00:32:17.536 --> 00:32:18.286
I wish I could.

00:32:18.695 --> 00:32:21.776
But I've seen some total that I thought would be a total winner.

00:32:22.236 --> 00:32:24.246
And I thought some would be a total loser.

00:32:24.865 --> 00:32:29.726
And the dumbest guy I ever had, he was, I mean, he called his first tax season.

00:32:30.016 --> 00:32:32.096
He must have been on the phone five hours a day.

00:32:32.746 --> 00:32:35.395
And asking the same questions over and over again.

00:32:36.056 --> 00:32:38.425
his father had bought the franchise for him.

00:32:39.705 --> 00:32:44.965
He's head of some, huge military international, organization.

00:32:44.965 --> 00:32:49.066
And his father was bright but his son was not.

00:32:49.455 --> 00:32:50.925
but he was very successful.

00:32:51.715 --> 00:32:55.115
So now I've seen the dumbest people make it, and the smartest people fail.

00:32:56.800 --> 00:33:00.300
Well, I'm thinking about the Zores in particular.

00:33:00.330 --> 00:33:19.540
What, what do you, you know, I understand you can't really tell, and there's certain, you know, baseline things like do you have the systems and what have you, but is there something else you look at in the leadership maybe that tells you they, they got a fighting chance of making it qualities that they might have?

00:33:19.820 --> 00:33:26.070
You have to be, what happens is this, is that, and I've had about.

00:33:26.661 --> 00:33:27.520
We have eight companies.

00:33:27.520 --> 00:33:51.980
I've had five or six divorces that, you know, I picked the partner and they said they would listen and they acted like they were going to listen, but I picked partners because I didn't realize this simple fact back when I first started with loyalty that they're just not capable of transitioning into being an owner of franchise, even with my guidance.

00:33:53.040 --> 00:34:00.891
I mean, I was, made the mistake of thinking that I could take you, Louie, with my guidance and make you a CEO of a franchise chain.

00:34:01.290 --> 00:34:03.050
Cause, and, I was wrong.

00:34:03.310 --> 00:34:04.790
I've been wrong more than I was right.

00:34:06.046 --> 00:34:25.815
You just can't make the change that you just not incapable of understanding the, what you, the, the lengths you have to go to, to create a system that state of the art best in the industry and that you have to coddle and baby these franchisees.

00:34:25.815 --> 00:34:26.985
I think of them as children.

00:34:27.630 --> 00:34:33.670
And, you know, I have six real children and 5, 200, adopted children from becoming franchise.

00:34:34.081 --> 00:34:35.201
So I think of them as children.

00:34:35.201 --> 00:34:36.570
You have to treat them like children.

00:34:39.681 --> 00:34:48.471
And most people can't make that transition from a non franchise business into being a CEO of a franchise business.

00:34:48.820 --> 00:34:54.360
It's, and so most of the time you have to be prepared to change out the founder.

00:34:54.706 --> 00:35:00.115
And, bring in someone that can handle franchisees, can handle a franchise system.

00:35:01.416 --> 00:35:01.786
Okay.

00:35:02.545 --> 00:35:09.286
So you mentioned when we started, Zoom and Grooming is going to be your third iconic, franchise.

00:35:09.295 --> 00:35:10.275
Everybody's going to know it.

00:35:10.496 --> 00:35:10.965
Why?

00:35:12.766 --> 00:35:14.695
Well, the industry is incredible.

00:35:15.545 --> 00:35:20.871
I heard a term that, I have adopted last week that I hadn't heard.

00:35:20.871 --> 00:35:29.050
I didn't even know it was the work that, he said, they were interested in investing in zoom and grim, and he said, because of the humanization of pets.

00:35:29.945 --> 00:35:38.516
And that's true that our society over the last 5 to 10 years has begun treating pets like children.

00:35:39.096 --> 00:35:44.585
in fact, there are many Americans that are having pets instead of children.

00:35:45.346 --> 00:35:49.246
And those that have both, two thirds of them like their pets better.

00:35:50.115 --> 00:35:55.686
pets are, at least dogs incredibly faithful and loyal and, they generally listen.

00:35:56.186 --> 00:35:57.465
it's a humanization of pets.

00:35:57.476 --> 00:36:00.315
the pet industry is exploding and the money spent is exploding.

00:36:00.536 --> 00:36:04.976
it's double the last four years and it's expected to double again over the next four years.

00:36:05.346 --> 00:36:11.175
When we call around the country we've grown incredibly quickly.

00:36:11.476 --> 00:36:14.106
it's one of the top out of 4, 000 franchise doors.

00:36:14.376 --> 00:36:19.126
It's already in the third year, one of the top 25 in the country, top 1 percent growth.

00:36:19.545 --> 00:36:44.356
And when you go anywhere in the country and Denver's one of our best markets in both ATEX and in zoom and grooming, and you ask how long did it take to get my, Pet groom and they say three weeks everywhere We're in 81 cities and we call up and say, and it's the only business I know in all my industries that I've been in and I do tax returns for tons of industries, not every industry.

00:36:45.246 --> 00:36:48.195
And it's the only industry I know the day you open your cashflow positive.

00:36:49.045 --> 00:36:54.715
in other industries, it takes a while to recover your investment and become cashflow positive.

00:36:55.056 --> 00:37:00.735
But the minute you open your mobile grooming, your cashflow positive, and then there's no national branding.

00:37:01.315 --> 00:37:04.976
You know, I don't have to compete against McDonald's or subway.

00:37:05.425 --> 00:37:08.416
Or pizza hut or H and R block or Kentucky fried chicken.

00:37:08.865 --> 00:37:15.235
There's no national brand and we're 37 months old and we're already number one in the industry.

00:37:15.775 --> 00:37:17.496
And so the sky's the limit from here.

00:37:17.545 --> 00:37:27.416
There's no one ahead of me, which is huge Because for 42 years I've been trying to beat up on H& R Block and they're still bigger than Jackson Hewitt or Liberty or Atax.

00:37:27.846 --> 00:37:29.106
But now we're number one.

00:37:29.106 --> 00:37:39.016
So that's an exhilarating feeling and that there's no other brand name and we will be the iconic brand name in dog grooming and mobile dog grooming.

00:37:39.326 --> 00:37:39.606
Yeah.

00:37:39.606 --> 00:37:44.166
It sounds like you have an opportunity to become the national brand in that space.

00:37:45.025 --> 00:37:56.036
I do think about AI a lot, and one of the opportunities I see is actually for more, services, products, that provide connection.

00:37:56.456 --> 00:37:59.025
I just believe connection is a basic human need.

00:37:59.376 --> 00:38:10.916
Element that we all desire and we're not getting enough of and that's becoming more and more evident as our society advances with things such as AI work from home, even school from home, all that stuff.

00:38:11.045 --> 00:38:13.726
And, while you were saying this, it just made me realize.

00:38:14.291 --> 00:38:19.130
Perhaps that's why the dog, or the pet business is growing.

00:38:19.170 --> 00:38:21.070
The industry is growing at such a high level.

00:38:21.070 --> 00:38:24.431
We are building these incredible connections with our dogs, right?

00:38:24.670 --> 00:38:28.150
That, I mean, I have two and I love them and I'm so connected to them.

00:38:28.521 --> 00:38:29.670
You know, my wife is too.

00:38:30.070 --> 00:38:36.911
We're looking at moving and we look at what the conditions are for our dogs there as one of the factors for possibly moving, you know?

00:38:37.541 --> 00:38:39.831
If that's not humanization of pets, what is?

00:38:40.195 --> 00:38:40.905
Exactly.

00:38:41.025 --> 00:38:41.275
Yeah.

00:38:41.275 --> 00:38:45.115
You used to look for, are the schools good enough for our children?

00:38:46.436 --> 00:38:49.206
Now you're looking, are the conditions good enough for our dogs?

00:38:49.476 --> 00:38:50.646
Are the laws and such.

00:38:50.666 --> 00:38:51.675
Yeah, exactly.

00:38:52.686 --> 00:38:54.896
What that's really, really interesting.

00:38:55.405 --> 00:39:28.190
You know, John, I'm wondering, If I could as two veterans of H& R Block I'm wondering if it seems like the one company that really has been able to disrupt their business model And has been into it and you as a student of business would have probably analyzed this and as a veteran of that company And being in the industry i'm wondering what you think they've been able to do so well to disrupt that industry Yeah, it's an industry.

00:39:28.240 --> 00:39:36.240
It's an interesting market that, went from the time I started in tax in 1969 with Block.

00:39:36.751 --> 00:39:39.791
They had 3, 000 offices and I was with them until they grew to 9, 000.

00:39:40.501 --> 00:39:50.891
And the time I started in the industry, 25 percent of the people went to a pay prep repair and Block had 35 percent of the market of paid preparation.

00:39:51.530 --> 00:39:55.740
And over the next 36 years until.

00:39:56.311 --> 00:40:03.201
2005, about 1 percent more people every year went in and paid to prepare.

00:40:05.190 --> 00:40:07.431
So by 2005, it grew to 60%.

00:40:08.260 --> 00:40:13.951
And then the internet really took off and TurboTax really took off.

00:40:14.690 --> 00:40:19.590
But all of TurboTax growth has been from people doing their own return by pen and paper.

00:40:20.431 --> 00:40:25.340
That's today in 2024, 60 percent of people pay to prepare.

00:40:25.911 --> 00:40:26.221
Right.

00:40:26.490 --> 00:40:29.320
So people think that it's been disruptive.

00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:38.380
But it hasn't, the only disruption is the percentage of people that were going to repair have been growing.

00:40:38.420 --> 00:40:38.960
It's stopped.

00:40:39.471 --> 00:40:44.021
so every year it's about 60 percent for the last, for the last 19 years.

00:40:44.440 --> 00:40:46.760
So it hasn't disrupted H& R Block.

00:40:47.150 --> 00:40:57.621
It's become a household name and they do more tax returns than H& R Block because they have, they have 70 percent of that market.

00:40:58.226 --> 00:40:59.576
I love the name TurboTax.

00:40:59.585 --> 00:41:05.246
What a great name I could, you know, I spent decades trying to think of anything close to that name.

00:41:05.246 --> 00:41:08.065
I could never come up with anything or any of my people.

00:41:08.396 --> 00:41:11.476
So it's a great name, great company there.

00:41:11.615 --> 00:41:12.956
They're worth something like.

00:41:13.670 --> 00:41:22.911
Last time I saw H& R Block was worth 6 billion or 7 billion and TurboTax or Intuit was worth like 60 billion, 10 times more.

00:41:23.351 --> 00:41:24.451
But a lot of that is QuickBooks.

00:41:24.840 --> 00:41:26.451
They also own QuickBooks.

00:41:26.501 --> 00:41:33.710
So that's, they're, they're about 60 percent making their value on QuickBooks and 40 percent on TurboTax.

00:41:34.210 --> 00:41:36.130
But it hasn't been a disruption.

00:41:37.746 --> 00:41:46.525
It's just been a, it's, they've got a lot of, a lot of press and they do a lot of tax returns, but it hasn't hurt the pay preparation.

00:41:46.826 --> 00:41:52.936
What really has hurt H& R Block, and it wasn't Jackson Hewitt, who we got to 6, 000 locations.

00:41:53.186 --> 00:41:55.525
It wasn't Liberty who we got to 4, 000.

00:41:55.525 --> 00:41:57.005
4, 000 locations.

00:41:57.356 --> 00:42:06.795
It's all of the mom and pops that the 250, 000 mom and pops and the H& R block has 9, 000 offices and there's 250, 000 mom and pops.

00:42:06.976 --> 00:42:13.306
You and I were talking earlier before the show about all the people that block has trained that you knew.

00:42:13.791 --> 00:42:14.871
Who went out and competed with them.

00:42:14.951 --> 00:42:17.771
they have developed all of their competitors.

00:42:18.190 --> 00:42:21.186
They developed me and they developed their competitors.

00:42:21.186 --> 00:42:31.135
So it's the mom and pops that have been the most disruptive to HR block and HR Block lost its entrepreneurial spirit when the last block.

00:42:33.235 --> 00:42:37.695
Family member left in 1995, they've lost their entrepreneurial spirit.

00:42:37.706 --> 00:42:41.905
So they've had 13 suits.

00:42:41.905 --> 00:42:44.615
I'll call him since then, who knew nothing about tax.

00:42:44.896 --> 00:42:47.956
And there, so they're there and average of two or three years.

00:42:48.246 --> 00:42:50.545
And they come in with all these new programs that don't work.

00:42:50.896 --> 00:42:52.416
And then they give it to the next guy.

00:42:53.356 --> 00:43:03.706
And so HR block has not, they've gone down from a market share in the thirties, 50 years ago, down to they're only a 13 percent market share.

00:43:03.791 --> 00:43:12.451
And even between Block, Jackson Hewitt, Liberty, and Atax, we only have less than 20 percent market share.

00:43:12.771 --> 00:43:14.710
80 percent of the market is mom and pops.

00:43:15.141 --> 00:43:18.431
They're the biggest disruption to H& R Block, the mom and pops.

00:43:19.530 --> 00:43:27.121
every year for, and I was always shocked at how many CPA candidates would come and take that class because that was the bet.

00:43:27.130 --> 00:43:45.380
They recognize that that was the top class to learn income taxes so they can pass their CPA exams, you know, and then it would go and start their own, you know, happy, but even our preparer now, I mean, she started at block many, many years ago and so many I run into, they've all taken that class They've trained all the competitors.

00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:46.030
That's interesting.

00:43:47.240 --> 00:43:49.451
Well, John, I really appreciate this conversation.

00:43:49.451 --> 00:43:50.300
I know you got to go.

00:43:50.300 --> 00:43:54.271
So let me, jump over to our Wayfinder four questions.

00:43:54.791 --> 00:44:05.351
the first one is what is a hack that you use every day to this kind of like, a cheat code you might use in life every day, I'm not.

00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:06.550
I don't know what you mean by that.

00:44:07.050 --> 00:44:17.391
like a shortcut, you know, something you do every day, maybe, an app on your phone or routine or one thing I do is I go to Dunkin Donuts every, I go to Dunkin Donuts every day for a cup of coffee.

00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:18.101
First thing in the morning.

00:44:19.931 --> 00:44:20.340
Okay.

00:44:20.731 --> 00:44:24.940
I love my Dunkin Donuts coffee, and I don't do any cooking of any kind, I guess.

00:44:25.251 --> 00:44:28.900
I do almost, I learned to microwave during COVID, so.

00:44:31.550 --> 00:44:31.971
Okay.

00:44:32.581 --> 00:44:33.001
All right.

00:44:33.030 --> 00:44:34.570
And what about a favorite?

00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:35.990
This could be a book.

00:44:36.001 --> 00:44:37.710
Dunkin Donuts is a daily, certainly.

00:44:37.710 --> 00:44:38.601
A what?

00:44:38.601 --> 00:44:39.490
A favorite.

00:44:39.490 --> 00:44:44.240
Like a What about a Like a book, a show, or a hobby.

00:44:44.240 --> 00:44:47.170
Oh, I love, I thought, yeah, I love, I'll give you two books.

00:44:47.735 --> 00:44:54.505
I used to, when I was young, before 15, I loved science fiction, and my favorite book was Doom.

00:44:55.085 --> 00:45:03.425
And then I, since then I've read, like, up until about four years ago, every week I would read a book, one business and one fiction.

00:45:03.666 --> 00:45:10.021
So I'll take Exodus, And those two books I hadn't read in over 50 years.

00:45:10.061 --> 00:45:13.110
a few months ago I said, these are like thousand page books.

00:45:13.911 --> 00:45:16.481
So then I said, you know, I haven't read them in 50 years.

00:45:16.481 --> 00:45:20.411
So I read them both over again and there was novel stuff that I hadn't remembered.

00:45:20.900 --> 00:45:23.990
And my favorite business author is, I have two, Peter Drucker.

00:45:24.945 --> 00:45:25.505
Dale Carnegie.

00:45:25.826 --> 00:45:26.956
I love everything Dale Carnegie.

00:45:30.036 --> 00:45:32.476
Yeah, two legends, like yourself.

00:45:32.766 --> 00:45:34.856
How about a piece of advice for your younger self?

00:45:39.576 --> 00:45:46.556
I never do what ifs, so I would give every young person, including myself, find something you love to do.

00:45:47.045 --> 00:45:48.396
Work hard, persevere.

00:45:48.885 --> 00:45:53.246
And if on Monday morning you're going to work, you're not looking forward to it, you're going the wrong place.

00:45:53.295 --> 00:45:55.326
you should have a life of, thank God it's Monday.

00:45:55.545 --> 00:46:00.016
If you're living a life of, thank God it's Friday, you're in the wrong place.

00:46:02.556 --> 00:46:02.965
Excellent.

00:46:04.445 --> 00:46:10.346
And what about, last one is just either a big opportunity or a limiting belief you choose?

00:46:13.815 --> 00:46:14.916
A big opportunity.

00:46:15.956 --> 00:46:17.876
I try never to be limited.

00:46:17.956 --> 00:46:21.655
I try to always think outside the box and get better and improve.

00:46:22.175 --> 00:46:27.606
And like, even the word I just gave you about the humanization, I'm learning every week, right?

00:46:27.666 --> 00:46:33.641
So I learned a new word this week that I'm going to use like Probably a thousand times before the end of the year.

00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:37.860
So I'm always learning and improving and committed to improvement.

00:46:38.615 --> 00:46:46.096
I think that one of the greatest, characteristics in success is just doing what you say you're going to do.

00:46:46.965 --> 00:46:49.286
So I would give everyone that advice.

00:46:49.615 --> 00:46:51.496
Just do what you say you're going to do.

00:46:51.885 --> 00:46:53.755
I learned that that's integrity.

00:46:54.465 --> 00:46:58.815
I learned that demonstrating honesty, integrity, honesty is talking about the past.

00:46:59.641 --> 00:47:09.400
Integrity is commitment to the future that if I say I'm going to do something next week that I'm fanatically committed 99 sure I'm going it's going to happen.

00:47:11.021 --> 00:47:11.630
Oh, man.

00:47:11.630 --> 00:47:40.795
I love that I I've come to realize that that is such a big value that I I really respect and appreciate, you know And and there's so many people who they think that just because they're telling the truth and being honest That that's it that that's integrity, but then you know, they don't show up for an appointment They tell you they're going to be there and I mean it's that's just as You know that that to me I think is a normal I'd almost rather have somebody lie to me I can probably figure that out over time didn't just you know Not have the integrity to do what you say you're going to do.

00:47:41.195 --> 00:47:43.775
So Yeah, I appreciate that.

00:47:45.115 --> 00:47:50.666
Yeah, I find integrity is less than five percent of the people I meet Yeah, I agree.

00:47:50.666 --> 00:47:53.226
And I've met tens of thousands.

00:47:54.865 --> 00:47:56.215
Been in business with tens of thousands.

00:47:57.865 --> 00:48:02.396
So John, if people want to know more about you, what, where can we point them to?

00:48:04.856 --> 00:48:05.476
At loyaltybrands.

00:48:06.076 --> 00:48:06.385
com.

00:48:06.885 --> 00:48:14.065
You can get a, your listeners or viewers can get a free copy of my book, I compete at loyaltybrands.

00:48:14.065 --> 00:48:14.286
com.

00:48:14.286 --> 00:48:17.885
There's a link that they can just link on and get a free copy of my book.

00:48:18.456 --> 00:48:18.726
Yeah.

00:48:18.726 --> 00:48:21.146
I actually just started it earlier in the day.

00:48:21.445 --> 00:48:25.416
Uh, in preparing for this, so I, I can't wait to read it and I'm excited.

00:48:26.266 --> 00:48:26.465
Yeah.

00:48:26.525 --> 00:48:26.675
Awesome.

00:48:28.016 --> 00:48:29.686
well, John, this has been a real treat.

00:48:29.746 --> 00:48:30.505
what a privilege.

00:48:30.505 --> 00:48:34.025
I mean, you've, you've really, you've changed the world and I think it's for the better.

00:48:34.556 --> 00:48:38.376
And, there's not a neighborhood in America where you can't find one of your offices.

00:48:38.856 --> 00:48:45.826
and, and soon there probably won't be a place where we can, you know, see one of your vans driving around to, take care of our dogs.

00:48:45.835 --> 00:48:45.865
Nice.

00:48:46.186 --> 00:48:46.885
So, Thank you.

00:48:46.916 --> 00:48:48.056
Expect to see them too.

00:48:48.065 --> 00:48:49.576
It's a beautiful little band.

00:48:50.255 --> 00:48:50.835
Oh, thank you.

00:48:50.846 --> 00:48:51.326
Great pleasure.

00:48:52.775 --> 00:48:53.175
Take care.

00:48:59.561 --> 00:49:01.322
We hope you've enjoyed The Wayfinder Show.

00:49:01.472 --> 00:49:05.692
If you got value from this episode, please take a few seconds to leave us a 5 star rating and review.

00:49:05.981 --> 00:49:10.231
This will allow us to help more people find their way to live more authentic and exciting lives.

00:49:10.891 --> 00:49:12.192
We'll catch you on the next episode.